I can't make up my mind: RedRock or Letus Extreme?

[slabbius]

I like the idea of the red rock because if I purchase the full package with follow focus and support/rails, I know everything will work properly together. However, I really like the idea of not having to flip my monitor and mess around with things in post when the Letus can do it for me right from the get go. My problem is that I am unsure of what would work with it as far as matte box, rails, support, etc. considering the shape of the unit. If I purchased the Letus, what would you recommend to purchase for rails and neccesary support.

I am aware of the light loss issues with the m2, and that does make it somewhat unappealing, but I do have a decent set of lights. In my mind the Letus is better, but I just don't know what exactly would work with it. Perhaps someone has some pics of how theirs is mounted?

This camera will be stationary for the most part, but maybe taken up on a jib or shoulder mounted occaisionaly. Shooting on Firestore mainly with p2 coming soon. Are there any shoulder mount kits that can be mounted right to a tripod for static shots and then removed for ease of mobile use?

I appreciate any input. Thanks!

[BlueWorld]

The light loss, lack of edge sharpness, and general pain setting up the M2 make that an easy decision. Given the construction of the M2 and the way the GG is mounted on the motor, ciritcal alignment is difficult to achieve and easily unsettled. I would look at a Brevis (http://www.cinevate.com) long before an M2.

Take a look at Cinevate (http://www.cinevate.com) and Zacuto (http://www.zacuto.com/) for rail systems that will work with just about any adapter.

[Kholi]

I'm sorry, but I own an M2 and haven't been experience this lack of edge sharpness. It is known that you may need to tweak all adapters, the M2 is no different.

Admittedly, I am one of the earlier orders of the Letus EX, but that doesn't mean the M2 isn't a great Adapter.

Not so much an easy choice, when you consider you need to add the cost of rails to the Letus EX and conjure up a way to mount it. While mounting it will be easier as more people use it and pass the word around, it's not as easy as hardmounting an M2 and running with it because it's established.

The M2 also still looks (IMO) more professional than the Letus EX. That could be neither here nor there, but still a consideration to some.

Don't discount the M2 or any of the other Adapters available.

[BlueWorld]

The level of tweaking required for an M2 is significantly greater than a Brevis. If you haven't had any edge sharpness issues, you should be grateful, as plenty of people have had plenty of trouble. We could never achieve edge sharpness after many days of tweaking. If the GG doesn't sit perfectly on the motor spindle, there's nothing you can do.

I think the M2 has one of the best looks(bokeh) of any of the adapters, but we sold ours as soon as we tried the Brevis, the M2 just wasn't worth the hassle and the light loss.

As for how professional the M2 looks, having birdhouse attached to our camera always got far more questionable looks than our Brevis. The LE looks a lot like a PRO35, and I'd rather have that look than the M2.

[slabbius]

Cool, well what Follow Focus systems would work with the Letus Extreme or Brevis? Can I just use any kind? How about a tripod mountable shoulder rig for everything?

[Kholi]

The level of tweaking required for an M2 is significantly greater than a Brevis. If you haven't had any edge sharpness issues, you should be grateful, as plenty of people have had plenty of trouble. We could never achieve edge sharpness after many days of tweaking. If the GG doesn't sit perfectly on the motor spindle, there's nothing you can do.

I think the M2 has one of the best looks(bokeh) of any of the adapters, but we sold ours as soon as we tried the Brevis, the M2 just wasn't worth the hassle and the light loss.

As for how professional the M2 looks, having birdhouse attached to our camera always got far more questionable looks than our Brevis. The LE looks a lot like a PRO35, and I'd rather have that look than the M2.

I am sure that I'm alone when I say this, but I don't think the Brevis has edge-to-edge sharpness. It may be the lenses that people are using, but every time I see Brevis footage I notice this really glassy smear on the right side of the frame. Like I said, it could be the glass... but I see it all the time.

I really haven't had trouble with my M2. I probably did get lucky, but the only problems I see in my footage are lens related, and that's because I didn't purchase expensive glass.

Either way, it's kinda both ways: Personal experience differs from user-to-user.

[reem12]

the bokeh on the m2 is pretty but the amount of work you half to do with the m2 isn't worth the hasle.and the customer service before i sold mine was nothing less then horrific.get the extreme and bypass all the unecessary issues associated with the m2.

[philip bloom]

The M2 also still looks (IMO) more professional than the Letus EX.

I now have my extreme to go with my m2 and Brevis (!). My camera of choice for 35mm adaptors has been my JVC HD200 but I haven't been able to get a satisfactory mount with it and the extreme, but here it is on my z1. Very impressed with it, not so pleased with the smear on bright out of focus highlights.

[Kholi]

What lens are you using? I might be completely wrong, but as far as I think the Letus EX is exposing the flaws of less-than stellar Glass. I mean, I probably AM wrong cause I never know what I'm talking about...

But, I think that you need to match the Letus' quality with better glass. If this is the case with Zeiss glass, then I suppose Hien will take a look at it. It seems to be one discrepancy floating around now.

I'm personally not concerned with it, but will hold reservations on final opinion for when the unit is received.

[StMad]

Philip, you're still a fan of the SGpro? Apart from chewing a little more light and being fairly heavy, I've heard only good things.

[philip bloom]

I have never owned an Sgpro. I only saw it during my shootout. Is was a very nice adaptor from what I saw.

I used a Nikon F2 DC 105mm lens, quite an expensive bit of glass, for the shot of me and the other shot was using my Zeiss 85mm f1.4. That's the Zeiss in the photo.

So the glass is about as good as you can get for a Nikon mount.

I am not overly concerned and it is a very minor thing for me. So many great things about this new adaptor sweep over the negative things.

[Kholi]

More reason why Thursday needs to be here so I can look at it with my own eyes and camera.

Do you have any footage from the JVC? Don't you need a relay for that cam?

[bvalente]

Hi Slabbius

We have really improved our adapter for ease of use and setup. There is certainly benefit to our packages that are complete and all the items work together.

On the light loss, our customers tell us they think the M2 is the most filmic bokeh of any adapter (take a look at the thread recnetly posted here http://dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=114178 )- it does come with a bit more light loss, but a set of measurements just finished pegged it around 1 stop (actually a little shy of that). We had originally released the M2 with a gg that had greater light transmission but got the same feedback going around now about less light loss solutions being smeary, etc. We think the M2 represents the best balance here.


BlueWorld, I'm sorry to hear you have not had a good experience. reem12 I stand by our customer support, and while it is unfortunate that yours sounded like an exception, we work our tails off to be responsive to everyone. Generally folks are really pleased and then some with our support. If there's anything more we can do for you then drop me a line.


Cheers

Brian

[Kholi]

Also like to add that Valente's service has ALWAYS been spot on with m'self. He's gone out of his way to get me rails and everything.

And, the Letus EX's new design looks a lot more promising than the initial. The few minor tweaks and support went a long way.

It's definitely not a straight-forward decision. There are lots of factors to consider about both adapters, if not all of them.

[philip bloom]

I agree, the M2 has the nicest Bokeh I have come across. I did have setup issues with it and gradually stopped using it in favour of my Brevis...

I haven't used the extreme with my JVC yet purely due to weight issues. There is no reason I can't attach it to my stock lens like I do with my Brevis. I probably will give it a try soon.

My ideal camera for the Letus will be the sony xdcam ex when it comes out. Very sharp lcd for focus when I haven't time to use my monitor. Lovely workflow etc...Think I will be selling my HVX200 when I get it. No need to have them both, especially as my main camera is an XDCAM F350

[bvalente]

The Sony EX is a whole other discussion forum - looks like a really great camera :)

Phil, we had some discussions around addressing your setup but I felt we didn't ever finish. If that's my fault, I apologize.

and Kholi, just to be clear it's not just me that provides support here at Redrock ;)

Brian

[reem12]

Yeah,my unfortunate customer service experience could have been an exception but for a poor indi filmaker like myself who dosen't have $1200 to throw around,it can just be a little frustrating.But on the other hand the bokeh is probably the most filmlike i've seen also.

[Dennis Wood]

Slab, I think you should add the Brevis adapter to your considerations. Our pre-flip bundle would get you a full 45cm carbon rails setup, Brevis-to-rails mount and the Brevis HD bundle for under $1300. Add the flip module when complete, and you're set for the most light efficient, flexible setup out there. No one else offers external micro-collimation of their lens mounts...something very important if you're swapping lens mounts.

We're the only folks with interchangeable imaging elements, so you can decide what compromises between light loss and "filmic" bokeh you require. Due to the modular design, the latest advancements (and current owner's can attest to our history on this point) simply drop in so you're not left with an obsolete adapter at any point.

[Chenopup]

Phil,

I'm assuming that support bracket under the LEX is the support bracket shipping with the unit?

cheno

[bvalente]

Yeah,my unfortunate customer service experience could have been an exception but for a poor indi filmaker like myself who dosen't have $1200 to throw around,it can just be a little frustrating.But on the other hand the bokeh is probably the most filmlike i've seen also.

I'm not sure I know *anyone* who has 1200 to throw around ;) , but if you have specifics on how we can improve please do PM me.

Also, it is simply not true the brevis is the only interchangeable screen - we've had this for several years.


Brian

[Dennis Wood]

Brian, my aplogies. As far as I know, we're the only company that offers six choices of imaging elements to both change bokeh, and optimize frame width in excess of the 36mm standard. I do realize that the SGpro and M2 have replaceable discs.

[DCP]

I can say that all three of these products (M2, Brevis, Letus) are made by companies who really stand out as far as customer service goes. I own all three and whenever I had a problem or questions, each were very responsive and helpful. People may ask "If each one is so good, why do you own all three?"

Simple answer: I couldn't help myself. Plus, I rent out my equipment and some renters have preferences.

[Dennis Wood]

D, our customer service isn't really where I want it to be yet...but we're working very hard on that. Establishing VOIP phone services and bringing on a dedicated fellow for phone/email/pmail support was one recent change. Our new facility will add a dedicated SKYPE video support area so we'll be able to offer visual support for everything we sell. By hiring Hubert Den Draak, a 25 year film veteran (not to menton a very kind soul), we've added, German, Dutch and French to our capabilities on the spoken side.

[DCP]

D, our customer service isn't really where I want it to be yet...but we're working very hard on that. Establishing VOIP phone services and bringing on a dedicated fellow for phone/email/pmail support was one recent change. Our new facility will add a dedicated SKYPE video support area so we'll be able to offer visual support for everything we sell. By hiring Hubert Den Draak, a 25 year film veteran (not to menton a very kind soul), we've added, German, Dutch and French to our capabilities on the spoken side.

Dennis,

Good to hear! I do have to say you were extremely helpful when crunch time came and I needed my Brevis fixed (mostly caused by user error). Thanks again for that!

As I said above, it's great to have choices and you can't really go wrong with any of them (again, it's a matter of preference and each one has it's own pros/cons).

[Blaine]

Don't get either. Save the money and spend it on getting good actors, :thumbsup:

[Kholi]

Can only get use out of those good actors once. xD If that.

[DCP]

Don't get either. Save the money and spend it on getting good actors, :thumbsup:

Fortunately I was lucky enough to get good actors for my feature (even dealing with SAG has been uncomplicated). It's true... these adapters can do a lot for the image, but the image has to be worth shooting in the first place.:smile:

[bvalente]

Dennis I think we are talking at cross purposes here. Having an interchangeable screen is great for future-proofing, and we embrace that. As pointed out, we are confident (and many others have also pointed this out) the current cinescreen produces the most filmic look. Should we develop one we think is improved we can release it to be easily upgraded, as we have in the past


regarding actors, thinking about the impending wga strike, it may be that good (and unemployed) SAG actors may be more easy to come by, especially for non-union jobs. Or wait, is that covered under SAG bylaws? :-S


Brian

[DavidChia]

I have never owned an Sgpro. I only saw it during my shootout. Is was a very nice adaptor from what I saw.

I used a Nikon F2 DC 105mm lens, quite an expensive bit of glass, for the shot of me and the other shot was using my Zeiss 85mm f1.4. That's the Zeiss in the photo.

So the glass is about as good as you can get for a Nikon mount.

I am not overly concerned and it is a very minor thing for me. So many great things about this new adaptor sweep over the negative things.

Hi Philip,

Are you also getting this kind of light smear when you use these lenses with the M2 or Brevis?

[Lenilenapi]

What kind of "light smear" are you talking about? Is it the kind of bloomning around an overexposed light that you would get say from a pro-mist or something different?

-Lenny

[DavidChia]

What kind of "light smear" are you talking about? Is it the kind of bloomning around an overexposed light that you would get say from a pro-mist or something different?

-Lenny
the smear here on these pictures

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1084989&postcount=8


I now have my extreme to go with my m2 and Brevis (!). My camera of choice for 35mm adaptors has been my JVC HD200 but I haven't been able to get a satisfactory mount with it and the extreme, but here it is on my z1. Very impressed with it, not so pleased with the smear on bright out of focus highlights.

[reem12]

this smear is the same thing i get when using my promist filter or a soft efx.

[Dennis Wood]

Phil uses a variety of lenses, most are Zeiss.

[Alvise Tedesco]

Having an interchangeable screen is great for future-proofing, and we embrace that. As pointed out, we are confident (and many others have also pointed this out) the current cinescreen produces the most filmic look. Should we develop one we think is improved we can release it to be easily upgraded, as we have in the past

Brian

Hi Brian. Nice to hear that.
Happy for an affordable mattebox and all of the coming RR accessories, but an IMPROVED cinescreen would be MUCH more interesting.
Improved could also be same lightloss as the "lowlight" one you had in the past with the quality of the actual shipped one...
Cheers

[Lenilenapi]

Ok now the "smear" thing is really quite important to me actually and is one of the more subtle aspects of bokeh.
In my experience it doesn't have to do with the lenses being used, but is a function of the diffusion screen. How the diffusion screen handles very bright objects.

In some cases like say the Redrock and a lesser extent I think the on the SGPro it does look somewhat like a promist. In fact in the heavier screens in general you will have a softer image, less DOF and more "halation" which I think is the right word. This can be good or bad depending on your taste. It can be very pretty or look like you slapped a diffusion filter over the lens and that will depend on how bright your overexposed object or lights are in the picture.

The Brevis CF1L as I remember doesn't have hardly any halation which is in keeping with its sharper cleaner diffusion screen. That's not neccessarily always a plus mind you, it depends on what you want. With the CF1L it comes with a bit more DOF and greater speed - pluses and minuses depending on your goals. Frankly I now have a Brevis and an SGPro for both looks. Kind of expensive way to go though.

The CF2L which you don't hear too much about for this reason had a "smear or halation " quality I didn't like as it didn't feel natural, almost like you could see the grain pattern in the halation. The CF3L on the other hand is pleasing - more like the DSGPro and the Redrock.

I can't tell enough from these pictures to evaluate it on the Letus Extreme. I'm just pointing out the nature of the issue and it is one very important thing to keep in mind when evaluating and choosing one of these adapters. Overexposed objects should look very pleasing because you'll have a lot of them with any adapter.

That's my 2 cents.

Lenny Levy

[Dennis Wood]

Halation on specular highlights is my personal pet peeve with adapters and why we worked so hard to make sure CF1/L does not display any of it. It's one of the those bokeh issues that I find very distracting during focus racks.

[Lenilenapi]

As I mentioned, I'm not for it or against it in principle, I just want to have some control or at least like the quality of what I'm getting. The mini35 as I recall also had noticeable halation. I guess all thing being equal I'd rather not have it imposed but have the choice to add it with say a filter.
It does seem to be (at least so far) a given with the heavier screens that lose more light and have least DOF. No free lunch i guess. As I recall the CF3L also had some halation didn't it?

Halation that looks like a pro-mist is at least pretty though. What you don't want is something that looks artificial.

- Lenny