Who Likes the XDCAM EX?

[David@Leo's Camera]

So I recently returned from training on the EX at Sony Canada. There's nothing new I can tell you that hasn't already been posted by Mikko from IBC etc. except that Sony Canada seems intent on making it price competitive to the U.S.
So I'm wondering how you guys see the camera. It has some pretty impressive specs but how many of you are truly bothered by the lack of native SD recording? Anything the camera doesn't have that you can't live without? Anything the camera does have that blows every other cam away? Who do you see using it? Indie filmmakers, wedding, ENG, music videos etc.
Thanks!

[joe 1008]

A) Will the EX have a flip screen or even flip codec for 35mm adapter use?

B) Will it have that suposed lossless noise reduction (at least in 720p) that was anounced for its "big" brothers?

[Elton]

I like the specs and I'm not bothered at all by the lack of SD recording. I haven't shot SD in over a year, even though I almost always deliver SD. Producers are finally learning that it's easy to downconvert to SD with superior results.

I think the native full raster recording is a pretty big deal, particularly the 720 mode.
That will be oversampled 720, which should look quite good and not too difficult to uprez and intercut with 1080, IMO.

The claimed 54 dB S/N is pretty impressive for a handheld camcorder. And 1000 TV lines of horizontal resolution? Very nice. Embedded HD-SDI is killer too, and a decent LCD for HD focus with good focus assist features is very forward thinking.

Most important is the lens. Finally, totally pro-style fixed lens. No more free-spinning focus...and the EX1 supposedly has CA compensation processing too. THAT is killer.

I think it's going to have very broad appeal across the entire spectrum. Indies, Event Video, Music Videos, Docs...on and on and on.

[David@Leo's Camera]

Yeah, I agree with all that! Having solid state memory and HD-SDI alone makes this camera pretty solid competition for Canon and Panasonic, but the 1/2" chip set and manual lens really puts it a notch above.
If Sony promotes this properly they should see some big sales. However, I doubt a lot of current P2 users will totally abandon ship right away.

[Stevet]

However, I doubt a lot of current P2 users will totally abandon ship right away.

And they need not to.

The EX will be an awesome camera, but I would not be surprised what the near future holds.

I'm hoping for a cam with the EX specs (and price) with 4:2:2 @ 160 Mbps (I-Frame). You can sign me up NOW for that one.

[William_Robinette]

If I had an HVX I don't think I would sell it for the EX, but not owning and either, I think I would (will) pick up an EX.

[myCharlie]

Since I heard that the SxS card will be around $900, I wonder if there is a laptop that have a HD-SDI card where I can record the video into a computer hard drive.

[Dethel]

When is this camera coming out? I read it was in October, now B&H are saying November.

[TimurCivan]

The HVX200 still has at least 2-3 more years of reliable service to me. I'm excited to see whats gonna happen in that time. Hopefully the ex will benchmark the performance per dollar ratio. Then the next gen cameras will have to be amazing.

[David@Leo's Camera]

When is this camera coming out? I read it was in October, now B&H are saying November.
It's definitely shipping early November in Canada.

[Stevet]

The HVX200 still has at least 2-3 more years of reliable service to me. I'm excited to see whats gonna happen in that time. Hopefully the ex will benchmark the performance per dollar ratio. Then the next gen cameras will have to be amazing.

Exactly, that's what I'm wondering. The EX is offering a lot, but only falls short with only 4:2:0 to SxS; although, XDCAM 35mb stuff looks real good. I know what you're going to say.... HVX200, but I'm talking about full 1920x1080P.

I'm actually sold on the EX, and plan on buying one.

[mojo92.1]

When is this camera coming out? I read it was in October, now B&H are saying November.
The Release party for the EX will be at the end of October at Abel Cine Tech.

[TimurCivan]

Exactly, that's what I'm wondering. The EX is offering a lot, but only falls short with only 4:2:0 to SxS; although, XDCAM 35mb stuff looks real good. I know what you're going to say.... HVX200, but I'm talking about full 1920x1080P.

I'm actually sold on the EX, and plan on buying one.

im just saying that im not going sell off the hvx and buy a EX right now. the jump isnt that drastic.

[Kholi]

The Party Pooper here, asking: Where's the footage?

[TimurCivan]

its not out yet dude.....

When it comes out im sure we'll see a ton of footy. I hope its good. I'll rentthat bad boy.

[Stevet]

True, the HVX200 is a decent camera! Unless you really need 1080P, I'd stay with the HVX200.

[Dethel]

The Release party for the EX will be at the end of October at Abel Cine Tech.

I am sure this will be a heck of a party!!!

I don't have a camera yet, so I might be looking more into this cam for sure.

[Morpheus_23]

I really was about to go back to the HVX but changed my mind at the last minute in favor of the EX1.

[William_Robinette]

True, the HVX200 is a decent camera! Unless you really need 1080P, I'd stay with the HVX200.

But the HVX does have 1080p.

[Elton]

But the HVX does have 1080p.

True, but that's where the big subjective pixel-counting debate happens. It's likely that the EX1's huge advantage in 2.2 megapixel sensors and (claimed) 1000 lines of horizontal resolution will have an impact in perceivable detail compared to the HVX.

One thing I will note about the EX1 that sharply contrasts with the other manufacturer's marketing material is that Sony is more than happy to disclose resolution, sensitivity and S/N specs. (1000 lines, F10 and 54 dB) That's an interesting change of course for this "affordable HD" camera category.

[TimurCivan]

yea but thats part in prcel of sony's marketing strategies. They have always been eager to show off "the numbers". Its that whole "Full HD" nonesense they have been pushing in their HD TV lines, it actually caught on with other manufacturers too.

IT was thier way of saying 1080 is better than 720. Though Since 108060p is unavialable, 720 60p is still the only good option for "video" look HD. they are REALLLY into semantics.

1080-24p is SUPERIOR to 720-24p. But 720-60p for full frame rate playback IS better than 1080i for the reality look. IT compresses better, and just plain looks better. I think the "Full hd" terminology is just rediculous. Each format benefits a certain use. I hate interlacing and i will NEVER use 1080i. But if i need Video look, i will shoot 720p60p.

Also.... Just for the record, I am Totally happy with the HVX200's 1080p. ITs sharp for any use i have. No Client has ever complained.

[Elton]

yea but thats part in prcel of sony's marketing strategies. They have always been eager to show off "the numbers". Its that whole "Full HD" nonesense they have been pushing in their HD TV lines, it actually caught on with other manufacturers too.

IT was thier way of saying 1080 is better than 720. Though Since 108060p is unavialable, 720 60p is still the only good option for "video" look HD. they are REALLLY into semantics.

1080-24p is SUPERIOR to 720-24p. But 720-60p for full frame rate playback IS better than 1080i for the reality look. IT compresses better, and just plain looks better. I think the "Full hd" terminology is just rediculous. Each format benefits a certain use. I hate interlacing and i will NEVER use 1080i. But if i need Video look, i will shoot 720p60p.

Agreed...but the wrinkle here is the actual spec quoting (for the entry-level HD segment) of very relevant data such as horizontal resolution, S/N ratio and sensitivity. I haven't really seen that for inexpensive HD cameras thus far.

I fully agree about 720 60p being inherently superior for video look...although HDTV's are getting so good at deinterlacing that both formats look effectivley the same. I know my very inexpensive Vizio 1080p LCD does a phenomenal job of making 1080i look like progressive source. It shouldn't look as good as it does...for HD video look.

Eventually all the cameras will be native progressive but the reality is that 1080i is an entrenched standard that isn't necessarily bad for video look even with today's progressive-native panels.

I'm with ya on the "Full HD" marketing garbage too.

[Weston]

Has the CMOS "wobble" been confirmed or disproven?

[mikkowilson]

Sony specs always look good. Shame their pictures so often don't.


Yes, the EX-1 does wobble. How badly has not yet been tested, but I can confirm that it does wobble, based on tripod tests I performed at IBC.

- Mikko

[Weston]

Sony specs always look good. Shame their pictures so often don't.


Yes, the EX-1 does wobble. How badly has not yet been tested, but I can confirm that it does wobble, based on tripod tests I performed at IBC.

- Mikko

Rats....that sucks.

That alone would definately keep me from buying it.

[Stevet]

Dang I might have to cancel the two I ordered!, NO WAY man! LOL

I heard, if it's there, there's not much.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=103037&highlight=wobble

[Stevet]

For those interested in the EX1 user manual:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=768171&postcount=4

[robfilms]

above ex1 user manual link does not work

be well

rob

[snowleopard]

The Manual is linked in this post on DVinfo (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=768448&postcount=11). in this zipped file. Thought I could embed it here, but nope.

Here is a link (http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_GB&contentId=1193315622075)to their new clip browser software.

[alpi69]

Ok to the original post:
- yes it bothers me a lot to be left without SD recording. I sometimes work with and/or for TV networks that need the material. and they need it with a certain realtime timecode. and they usually need to take it home after the shoot. it took me months and months of persuasion to be able to give the P2 content, and they all had to get used to the P2 workflow when working with me etc etc. Some use FCP some use AVID some use Liquid/FAST. But now we are there and it works. They are mostly used to work tapebased which makes sense and to be allowed to deliver in P2 is actually a privilege for me. but all this is in SD. The EX would force me to rent a camera definitely for these gigs. No way would they start converting and I don´t want to force anyone into a new workflow yet again. The funny thing is they are used to XDCam (SD), but the EX uses a new XDCam, many NLE´s will not supply support soon ( I know Liquid/FAST won´t, probably AVID and Apple are slow also usually). So yes, to be in a new XDCam format in HD only is a dealbreaker for me.
- the wobble is an issue that comes on top of the HDV GOP and 4:2:0 "problems". Sure many HDV images are awesome and GOP is not often a problem and 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2 is overrated (especially on this board), BUT the fact is there are issues.
And once you have a client who wants some extreme colours or you have to explain why the image of the lake is not perfect you wish you had a single-frame compression.
Especially the SONY HDV GOP recording is rather weak. I do a lot of sports and when a guy brought me his "oh so awsome FX1" it took me seconds to show him compression artifacts (shooting moving cars very close so the whole image was a constant movement; it didn´t look as perfect as his tripod-sunset shots from Bali).
How XDcam 35mbs will hold its own in 1080p will be seen. But I have to admit on Canon cams I yet have to see a problem with the GOP-compression.

The fact is the HVX is a great cam and even if the 1/2 inch CMOS is extremely interesting and probably quite a bit higher res than the HVX is, it for now has too many questions and a too high introduction price to be bought by ME. This is my subjective view, of course. If I had the money sure I would buy it , use it and sell it if it wouldn´t fit my work.
But as an investment in my (and my family´s) future I rather spend these extra thousands in light, an adapter with lenses, tripod head and whatnot that makes more of an impact to the image than the 1/2 inch CMOS.

[Stevet]

Hmm.
Sounds like you better not buy the EX1.

Sorry, but the XDCAM has been dissected quite a bit. MPEG artifacts are not an issue. In fact, XDCAM HD has been approved by Discovery HD as a full 100% acquisition format (i35Mbps high quality mode). This is due to their extensive testing that did NOT show MPEG issues.

I do agree with MPEG artifacts seen on the FX1 and even the HD100, which I own.
It's not until you have busy high detail motion that the codec "may" not be able to handle it. This has not been seen as a problem with the XDCAM codec, especially in HQ mode.
The image coming off this thing is going to be jaw dropping. I've heard it fairs REAL well in the CA department too.. I can not say this for many sub 10K cams!

[alpi69]

Great, thanks for clarification. Good to hear the XDCam codecs are better than the HDV by SONY.
On the contrary to some folks here at DVXuser I do not hope that this cam has a flaw. If it works as advertised it will be an enormous step forward for us small production houses. Just like the VX1000 was once and the DVX100 was later it is a leap forward with the 1/2`` chip.
I only stated my personal experience or what I heard from people whose judgement I trust.
If I was in the US where HD is far more in the heads of producers and clients I would be well tempted, but in Europe the networks are quite a few steps behind and simply don´t ask or even take HD material.
But in a year, when all bugs (if there are any) are ironed out, the workflow is set and the price is a bit lower I will probably look at SONY again....unless Panasonic couterstrikes soon with a new invention (but I honestly doubt that).

[TimurCivan]

Panasonics next strike is the HPX500. The EX doesnt offer the same things that the HPX does. 2/3" Low noise, Amazing light sensitivity.....

The EX nicely fills the Gap, theory/philosophy wise.

[snowleopard]

But the HPX500 is double the cost of the EX when you include a lens.

[LuckyStudio 13]

The hpx500 is around 22k with a canon lens and around $20k with a fujinon lens. That does not include the AB batteries and charger , which will set you back another $1500.

Mounting a 35mm adapter to the HPX500's 2/3" Eng lens is another big issue by itself.

If you are willing to spend > 20k and wanted the 35mm look, The Red one with Briger mount and Nikon lenses are probably the best way to go.

[philip bloom]

I received my EX1 today (serial number...3)!!

Love it.

I shot a scene with a colleague who had an HPX 2100 and the ex1 was noticeably sharper!

[snowleopard]

Philip Bloom - Great to hear. We are all very envious of you. Post-up a few clips somewhere if you can. Even if you have to dumb them down to 720p. Especially if you can put up comparison clips between the EX1 and other cameras.

If you are willing to spend > 20k and wanted the 35mm look, The Red one with Briger mount and Nikon lenses are probably the best way to go.

Considering it's still an MOS camera, and ordering one now means you'd get it who knows when, I'd instead buy a Vision Research Phantom camera if I were going to pony up serious money.

[Stevet]

The EX1 is going to change this sub $8K USD market.
Full 1920x1080 raster sensors and 1/2" will be the selling point for these cameras.
Let's face it, we've all fought with 1/3" HD cams and settled for their less than adequate sensitivity.

I'm hearing the glass on the EX1 is excellent for a camera of this cost.

[Elton]

The lens is absolutely stunning for a handheld camcorder. It's money. :)

[jdmoviemaker]

It looks great , I cant wait to get my hands on one!

[avp]

The EX1 looks like a great camera..! Next year I will make the move from sd to hd and I am exploring all the options for the next 6 to 8 months, including a much anticipated trip to NAB. I will have just about 10k for everything...monitor, capture card, etc. My editing system will handle hd but I will need to upgrade peripherals.
What do you think about the price of the memory cards for the EX1? Can we expect the price to drop in the next year? On many of my shoots I will roll several hours of tape. At $800+ USd for a 16 gb card, that can be a substantial addition to the around 7k for the camera. What about archiving issues? What would be the preferred method for archiving uncut hd footage?
Capturing...will I need to get a sdi card? Being only experienced in sd, I have many burning ?'s

thanks all....Jeffro