Non-English films in the US

[karapetkov]

Hi all,


I would like to ask a question. I was following the thread about Pan's Labyrinth and someone made an important remark on subtitled films.

And this is the essence of my question:

What are the chances of a Non-English [that would mean: subtitled] movie to become a success in the US?

What do I mean by "success": Not primarily the commercial side but more - the approval of the US audience toward a foreign movie.

Of course if the movie is attractive to the people, this would be good for business, but income isn't my primary interest .

So.... how likely is that the US moviegoers become interested in a subtitled film?

Let's say that I have an idea for a film which although using local context\actors\language is actually treating global problems. Close to every man... and woman ;), theoretically.

I know that the above sounds a little abstract, but yet...

Let's also remember what Hitchcock said:

[I]"If it's a good movie, the sound could go off and the audience would still have a perfectly clear idea of what was going on."

I really believe in that. You know, making the first version of the shooting script as if the movie was a silent one, and stuff.

So, how likely is a subtitled movie to become a kind of "hit" in the US? :)

Has something like this happened before?

I don't remember how Pan's Labyrinth performed on the box office, and this is a kind of indicator in the end.

I have heard many times that the chances are rather small, but I was curious to know your opinions too.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. Oops, I must have started the thread in the wrong category, I'll ask the moderators to be kind and put it where it should be if it doesn't fit here.

[Blaine]

Personally, if I wanted to read, I'd have picked up a book. That said, I know A LOT of people who aren't bothered AT ALL by subtitles as long as it's a GOOD STORY. If it's a good story, it will find a home.

[Barry_Green]

"Life Is Beautiful" was subtitled. It won the Oscar for best foreign-language picture, best actor, and best score, and was also nominated for best picture, best screenplay, best editing, and best director.

It grossed $58 million in the US.

Now, compare that with "Run, Lola, Run"; it was also subtitled and grossed $7.2 million.

Or "Babette's Feast", which won the Oscar for "best foreign language film"... it grossed $4.4 million.

In short, if your film's as good as "life is beautiful" you've got a chance. Otherwise, it'll be a major struggle.

[karapetkov]

"Life Is Beautiful" was subtitled. It won the Oscar for best foreign-language picture, best actor, and best score, and was also nominated for best picture, best screenplay, best editing, and best director.

I thought that foreign language films compete only in that category.

Didn't know that it could go for best picture, best director and so on.

[Barry_Green]

The Academy can nominate whatever they want for best picture. I think the rules for "best foreign-language picture" are that it has to be submitted for consideration by the country it was made in.

It's happened before where pictures have been nominated for both "best foreign-language picture" and "best picture", I believe "Il Postino" was nominated in both categories, as was "Crouching Tiger".

"Letters From Iwo Jima" was nominated for "best picture" even though it's all in Japanese, but that's a different situation because it was an American filmmaker.

Obviously the biggest box-office success for a subtitled picture goes to "The Passion Of The Christ" which did Blair Witch caliber numbers, grossing over $220 million. But again, that's not really the same thing; that was an American filmmaker who chose the language on purpose for his own reasons; it's not quite the same thing as a "foreign" filmmaker making a picture in the native tongue of their country.

Then there's other types of pictures that can cross categories, like "The Triplets of Belleville" -- it's an animated musical, and weren't all the songs in French? And besides songs, there really wasn't any dialogue at all... Should it be submitted for best picture? Best animated picture? Best foreign-language picture? All of the above? Who knows? The only nominations it got were for best animated feature and best original song.

[DeSica]

As another poster pointed out, foreign films have done various levels of box office in the United States...which, for the most part, is a country inhabited by citizens who couldn't care less about other countries or cultures (unless they have oil.) Having said that, enough of them love good art enough to seek it out, even if it means reading a little bit.

Life Is Beautiful was very successful, as another poster pointed out, and even though it didn't have a Hollywood ending, it had certain qualities even the most ignorant of cretins could find appealing. whatever their mother tongue.

Run Lola Run may have only made $US 7 million, but it was made for less than $2 million, and had no stars in it.

The Motorcycle Diaries made around $16 million in the U.S. It ended up making over $50 million worldwide, was about a famous communist, and starred a guy famous for his work in other foreign films.

Amelie made over $30 million in America. The budget for that film was something like $10 million.

Y Tu Mama Tambien was made for something like $5 million, and almost tripled that in it's American box office alone.

So, even though 75% of Americans don't have passports, and many of the ones that do go to far off exotic lands to eat McDonalds, there are still enough Americans appreciative of good cinema to pay money and sit through a foreign language film.

Like another poster said, quality is what will porbably make you or break you. Lots of english language films have flopped in the U.S., but they keep making more...

[MOVIE STUNTS]

So, even though 75% of Americans don't have passports, and many of the ones that do go to far off exotic lands to eat McDonalds, there are still enough Americans appreciative of good cinema to pay money and sit through a foreign language film.
g
Ow... I love a good foreign film. And the shrimp burger at Mcdonalds in Japan is awesome and their KFC is better than ours in America.

[Kirk Gillock]

I think US audiences are becoming more open to the idea of foreign films being entertainment and no longer just as "artsy stuff". Movies like Amelie, Hero, Ong Bak, Life is Beautiful, The Host, and Tsotsi are proving that foreign films have a right to be placed on video rental shelfs in the US just as much as Police Academy 7.

P.S. The KFCs here are good too.

[karapetkov]

Movies like Amelie, Hero, Ong Bak, Life is Beautiful, The Host, and Tsotsi are proving that foreign films have a right to be placed on video rental shelfs in the US just as much as Police Academy 7.

And what about theatrical release...:happy:

[DeSica]

Dude, we just gave you examples earlier on of theatrical releases that did well...I even gave you figures.

[karapetkov]

I know, sorry :Drogar-Kriz(DBG):, just because he mentioned video rentals and... that kinda excluded theatrical releases.

Well, mentioning movies like Amelie and Life Is Beautiful makes the US market kind of a Champions League for distribution, huh?

Can't hurt to try, though... :)

[DeSica]

Over 300 miliion people, many with some kind of decent disposable income...you tell me.

[karapetkov]

A-ha :).

[karapetkov]

Problem is that my film has a poetic\philosophical subtext and message. And I want it to be understood not only by the PhD's. And that's tough... :Drogar-BlackEye(DBG.

[TwistedLincoln]

With very few exceptions, I almost never enjoy a film with subtitles or with an English-dubbed soundtrack (when the actors aren't actually speaking English).

Why? Well as is pointed out often in the audio forum, audio is at least half of the audience's perception of a film. We all know that crappy audio can ruin an otherwise good film. Seems to me that considering the largest amount of a movie's audio is the dialog, if it isn't intelligable, that basically relegates the entire audio experience void... Add to that the fact that often foreign and dubbed films don't have much of a soundtrack, and you can usually make the claim that such films have "crappy audio"...

I'm not saying it's impossible to do it well, but as a general rule, unless the story doesn't require almost any dialog to make sense (ie Cast Away), then it will be very difficult to be any good without dialog in English.

I've even tried to watch some of my favorite DVDs using the second audio track option, and English captions, and I couldn't get through them. And that's having already seen and enjoyed them in English...

But that's just me.

[JConnors]

The only thing that I sometimes dislike about subtitles is the fact that you can miss a little of the film while reading them. Besides that I really don't notice that much of a difference and it doesn't really bother me.



Ow... I love a good foreign film. And the shrimp burger at Mcdonalds in Japan is awesome and their KFC is better than ours in America.



McDonalds McChicken's in the states are ten times better than the ones here in Canada.


The Academy can nominate whatever they want for best picture. I think the rules for "best foreign-language picture" are that it has to be submitted for consideration by the country it was made in.

So Letters from Iwo Jima wouldn't technically be considered for best foerign language picture because an American director did it? What if a movie was done in the UK, even though it was in english would that be considered?

[Barry_Green]

My understanding is that films considered for the "best foreign language picture" category have to be nominated for consideration by the country it was produced in. As to whether the USA could nominate an American director for "best foreign language picture" -- I don't know.

Just thought of one other invasion of subtitling that has probably made the whole prospect a lot more palatable for American audiences in general: a large portion of one of last year's biggest hit TV shows was subtitled. "Heroes" spent a lot of time in Japanese with subtitles.

[DeSica]

With very few exceptions, I almost never enjoy a film with subtitles or with an English-dubbed soundtrack (when the actors aren't actually speaking English).

So that pretty much eliminates foreign language films...


Why? Well as is pointed out often in the audio forum, audio is at least half of the audience's perception of a film.At least half...if not almost all...that is why you can watch most good films with your eyes closed the whole time and still walk away impressed...film is mostly a sound medium.


We all know that crappy audio can ruin an otherwise good film. Seems to me that considering the largest amount of a movie's audio is the dialog, if it isn't intelligable, that basically relegates the entire audio experience void... Yes. Crappy audio is very much a function of the language it is recorded in...not the mix, or the recording, or way too loud effects. When you ask a soundman if the audio is good, you're asking if everything is in english.



Add to that the fact that often foreign and dubbed films don't have much of a soundtrack, and you can usually make the claim that such films have "crappy audio"...Precisely. No good movie has ever not had a bunch of popular songs strewn throughout the film. Nevermind how good the score is, or how well it compliments the emotional elements of the film...The Godfather is an excellent example of this. Has any soundtrack had more number one hits?


I'm not saying it's impossible to do it well, but as a general rule, unless the story doesn't require almost any dialog to make sense (ie Cast Away), then it will be very difficult to be any good without dialog in English.Take note, OP. History has proven this. If you ignore the hundreds of foreign language films that have been very good, you will see that this is irrefutable.


I've even tried to watch some of my favorite DVDs using the second audio track option, and English captions, and I couldn't get through them. And that's having already seen and enjoyed them in English...You were brave just to have tried.


But that's just me.If only...

[StefanHaynes]

With very few exceptions, I almost never enjoy a film with subtitles or with an English-dubbed soundtrack (when the actors aren't actually speaking English).

Why? Well as is pointed out often in the audio forum, audio is at least half of the audience's perception of a film. We all know that crappy audio can ruin an otherwise good film. Seems to me that considering the largest amount of a movie's audio is the dialog, if it isn't intelligable, that basically relegates the entire audio experience void... Add to that the fact that often foreign and dubbed films don't have much of a soundtrack, and you can usually make the claim that such films have "crappy audio"...

I'm not saying it's impossible to do it well, but as a general rule, unless the story doesn't require almost any dialog to make sense (ie Cast Away), then it will be very difficult to be any good without dialog in English.

I've even tried to watch some of my favorite DVDs using the second audio track option, and English captions, and I couldn't get through them. And that's having already seen and enjoyed them in English...

But that's just me.
This post is just... indescribable. You're literally causing me to break out into hives. My arms are numb.

However, at least I can garner a bit more elitism out of watching foreign films. I should note here that, aside from a few one-off American directors, my favorite films are foreign.

[TwistedLincoln]

I laugh. I knew I'd get some flak for my post.

While I might have exaggerated things a bit, I do stick by my premise: films that are hard to follow or understand are hard to enjoy. This statement isn't limited to non-English or foreign films, it applies to almost everything.

When I said that a film without a soundtrack had "crappy audio," I didn't mean a film that didn't have hit songs in it. I actually would rather have a straight score without words than some top 10 hit. But what I don't want is NO music or audio.

Any film (foreign or domestic) that has entire 3-5 minute scenes with no background music, environmental audio, or other ambient noice is automatically playing with a handicap as far as I'm concerned. Silence should be used sparingly.

As far as the language itself is concerned, most of the time it's very hard to concentrate on the plot when you're trying to figure out what exactly people are saying. Can it be done well? Of course. But more often than not, it isn't.

Look at American films that have scenes with characters that are speaking a different language. They typically write the dialog such that you can read the subtitles without missing any important action, and the characters don't talk so fast that you have problems keeping up. But a film that was created for a target audience that doesn't speak English isn't made like that. That doens't mean it is a terrible film -- it just means I can't enjoy it. I'm sure American films are crappy to those who don't speak English for the same reasons. Of course our bigger budgets typically lead to better audio/soundtracks, so in that regard I do think there's a difference.

That said, to address the original poster, there are lots of people in the US that disagree with me, so just market to them... :cheesy:

[DeSica]

[quote]I laugh. I knew I'd get some flak for my post.

While I might have exaggerated things a bit, I do stick by my premise: films that are hard to follow or understand are hard to enjoy. This statement isn't limited to non-English or foreign films, Yes...some english language films are hard to follow simply because they are poorly made...nevermind being too incredible in their plots and actions to maintain any suspension of disbelief while watching them. How are non-english language films hard to follow...is it the reading for content?


When I said that a film without a soundtrack had "crappy audio," I didn't mean a film that didn't have hit songs in it. I actually would rather have a straight score without words than some top 10 hit. But what I don't want is NO music or audio. Right...and which films (foreign or otherwise) are you talking about there?


Any film (foreign or domestic) that has entire 3-5 minute scenes with no background music, environmental audio, or other ambient noice is automatically playing with a handicap as far as I'm concerned. Silence should be used sparingly.I hate those films with no sound....I just can't think of any where the is no score, background or ambient noise...if any exist, I am sure I hate them


As far as the language itself is concerned, most of the time it's very hard to concentrate on the plot when you're trying to figure out what exactly people are saying. Can it be done well? Of course. But more often than not, it isn't. That is what the sub titles are for...dubbing is good for the folks who "don't read so good."


Look at American films that have scenes with characters that are speaking a different language. They typically write the dialog such that you can read the subtitles without missing any important action, and the characters don't talk so fast that you have problems keeping up.Are you suggesting Americans don't read well?


But a film that was created for a target audience that doesn't speak English isn't made like that. That doens't mean it is a terrible film -- it just means I can't enjoy it. I'm sure American films are crappy to those who don't speak English for the same reasons. Actually, most non-english speakers I know have no problem. I saw Pulp Fiction in Havana, and the Cubans had no trouble keeping up. The rape thing didn't go over too well, though.


Of course our bigger budgets typically lead to better audio/soundtracks, so in that regard I do think there's a difference.Due to the ability to afford million dollar microphones that recod better sound than regular industry standard? Is it the audio f/x? "Man, Driven sure was a hunk of junk...but did u hear those engines ruining our ears?" Or is it because they can afford better songs?


That said, to address the original poster, there are lots of people in the US that disagree with me, so just market to them... :cheesy:You're right about that. Somehow I don't think he was thinking about Missouri as a market anyway. People are too busy watching cars drive in circles (ovals..whatever) there.

[karapetkov]

I'm not saying it's impossible to do it well, but as a general rule, unless the story doesn't require almost any dialog to make sense (ie Cast Away), then it will be very difficult to be any good without dialog in English.


Well, that gives me some hopes, as most of my film would be with very little dialog [as part of a *concept*]. :)

Heavy dialog in 1st act [exposition] and less and less further in the film.

I'm thinking about dubbing - hiring British\American actors to do it for the English speaking world.

But it seems that the original actors will have to merge two versions of their acting:


1. Locally adequate performance.

2. Adequate-for-English-dubbing performance.

:)


Which would most probably result in a totall mess. :crybaby:

We'll see.

Any *dubbed* foreign movies that were successful in US?

[Batutta]

Any *dubbed* foreign movies that were successful in US?

Das Boot, which has one of the best dubbing jobs I've ever seen. The rest are mostly martial arts films like Supercop and Rumble in the Bronx (which has hilariously bad dubbing). Crouching Tiger and Hero did very well with using subtitles, 128 million and 53 million domestic gross respectively.

[karapetkov]

Crouching Tiger and Hero did very well with using subtitles, 128 million and 53 million domestic gross respectively.


Yeah, I had forgotten about these. I myself have watched\listened [:)] to both the Chinese and English-dubbed versions and both were OK with me. But, on the other hand, English isn't my native language.

Great movies, BTW. Especially Tiger...

*

Well, this gives some food for thought.

Guess we'll have to also consider the possible dubbing when re-writing dialog. :)

Or an adequate-sounding English translation.

We'll see.

Thanks. :beer:

[Batutta]

Guess we'll have to also consider the possible dubbing when re-writing dialog. :)

Or an adequate-sounding English translation.


Or stick some kung-fu in your movie. Americans love it.

[karapetkov]

Or stick some kung-fu in your movie. Americans love it.


Haha.

I've always wanted to make a *real* kung-fu movie, but as encounters between trained fighters last 3-5 sec., I don't know if it will be very interesting visually. :)

Maybe focus on the drama and put some 3-5 sec. kung-fu scenes at plot points. :beer:

Lol.