XDCAM EX vs. HDV

[rc444]

Hi there,

what's the main difference between XDCAM EX and HDV?

They both seem pretty similar (both formats are 4:2:0), the only differences to me is that XDCAM of course has 2/3 inch lens, and a bitrate of 35Mbps, compared to 25Mbps and 1/3 inch lens with HDV.

Also, which format do you think would is superior out of these three -- DVCPRO HD, XDCAM EX or HDV? DVCPRO HD would probably be superior being 4:2:2, but I could be wrong.

Thanks,
rc444

[Barry_Green]

You've asked a question that's a lot harder to answer than you know.

XDCAM is not just XDCAM. There's XDCAM-HD, in three different flavors, and then there's XDCAM-EX, in two flavors in 1080, plus XDCAM-EX in 720. So there's lots of different versions.

What they all have in common is that they're all long-GOP, interframe 4:2:0 MPEG-2.

XDCAM HD, in all three modes (18, 25, and 35 megabits) and XDCAM-EX in 25-megabit modes, all record at 1440x1080. XDCAM-EX in HQ mode records at 1920x1080.

XDCAM HD and XDCAM-EX in 25 megabits is basically the same as HDV, except the audio is uncompressed in XDCAM vs. compressed in HDV. Other than that, they're the same.

In 25 megabit mode, all versions of XDCAM HD and XDCAM EX and HDV record in constant bitrate. In 18-megabit and 35-megabit XDCAM HD, and in 35-megabit XDCAM-EX, it uses variable bitrate.

XDCAM EX uses two channels of uncompressed audio; I believe XDCAM HD uses four channels. This is significant, because it means that of the extra 10 megabits that XDCAM-HD gets over HDV, about half of that is spent on audio. And XDCAM EX has to cram 33% more video data into the same bandwidth, but its job is eased by losing two audio channels, which frees up 3 megabits. XDCAM EX will still be more compressed than XDCAM HD 35 megabits, but not by a whole lot, and it will have more spatial resolution data.

Which format is "better" or "superior"? Again, that's a loaded question, because people seem to have an awfully hard time separating the format from the camcorder. Formats are not camcorders. Yes an HVX is a DVCPRO-HD camcorder, but so is a $48,000 HPX3000. So you have to look at the format separately.

As a format, and as only comparing formats, DVCPRO-HD decimates HDV and is always superior to XDCAM-HD. The question arises with XDCAM-EX because EX records the full raster. Even so, it's 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0, and long-GOP vs. Intraframe. In that comparison I would always choose the intraframe codec.

Let's put it a different way, which is a lot simpler to understand: DVCPRO-HD is Panasonic's answer to HDCAM. Both formats are directly comparable. Sony ranks its HD offerings like this: HDV is at the bottom, HDCAM is at the top, and XDCAM-HD is in the middle. So by that reckoning, and assuming that you agree that DVCPRO-HD is basically equivalent to HDCAM, then Sony would be saying that DVCPRO-HD is superior to XDCAM-HD.

We don't know how they'll position XDCAM-EX, but given that it's still a 4:2:0 format and still long-GOP I'm comfortable lumping it in with XDCAM-HD, but perhaps slightly above the existing XDCAM-HD.

But why does this all not matter? Because the camera head is usually more important than all this format stuff anyway. If you put a $5,000 HVX200 up against a $35,000 XDCAM-HD camera, guess what -- the XDCAM is probably going to produce superior-looking footage, even though the HVX has the better format! (I say probably because, again, it depends on the type of footage you're going for; people at WETA Digital did exactly this comparison for chroma keying, and ended up choosing the HVX as the product that delivered the superior key even against the $35,000 XDCAM 350).

Conversely, if you put a $48,000 DVCPRO-HD HPX3000 up against a $7500 XDCAM EX system, the HPX3000 is likely going to mop the floor up with the XDCAM camera.

But if you took that same comparison, and took off the HPX3000's lens and substituted in a crappy cheap lens, then the tables might turn again.

So you have to look at it all in overall context, as a complete end-to-end imaging system.

As formats go, AVC-Intra/D5/HDCAM-SR > DVCPRO-HD/HDCAM > XDCAM-EX > XDCAM-HD > AVC-HD > HDV. (and I suspect that 24-megabit AVC-HD will hold up very well to XDCAM-HD, but since there are no high-quality AVC-HD heads out there that's a test that'll have to wait a while.)

But unless you're buying a mastering tape deck, you're not buying a format, right? You're buying a whole system. So other things come into play, such as NLE support, ease of editing and post workflow, camera heads, lenses, etc. In that comparison, many of the top formats (like HDCAM) sink to the bottom because you can't edit HDCAM in its native codec on any NLE (except the Sony XPri, I believe). And XDCAM-EX isn't yet supported by NLEs, and neither is AVC-Intra, and very few editors support AVC-HD yet. Whereas most every editor has native DVCPRO-HD and HDV support.

Again, you have to look at the total system.

[mikkowilson]

Barry; Whats your source for 25mbps XDCAM-EX?

I was under the impression that XDCAM-EX was 35mbps only. That the 25mbps mode on the EX1 is simply traditional HDV(25) recorded to solid state.

I know that the HDV output connector is only active in 25mbps mode, and that it can't output HDV (or anything) when in 35mbps mode.

- Mikko

[Barry_Green]

Could be wrong; it was my understanding that XDCAM's 25mbps mode is bitstream identical in video, but that it uses uncompressed audio, and hence it is not technically HDV. And I further understood that XDCAM-EX continues that same format (although perhaps in an MP4 wrapper). But again, I could be wrong.

What it streams out the firewire port would definitely be compressed audio though, to make it HDV-compliant.

[mikkowilson]

We shall have to wait and see I guess.

- Mikko

[moldcad]

Could be wrong; it was my understanding that XDCAM's 25mbps mode is bitstream identical in video, but that it uses uncompressed audio, and hence it is not technically HDV. And I further understood that XDCAM-EX continues that same format (although perhaps in an MP4 wrapper). But again, I could be wrong.

What it streams out the firewire port would definitely be compressed audio though, to make it HDV-compliant.

So, I'm still uncertain on whether at 25Mbps, the EX1 will be 100% compatible with the HVR-DR60 disk drive, which can (only, I guess) record fully HDV-compliant, m2t files. This is of paramout importance to me, as I'm going to upgrade from the V1 and alredy have the DR60 drive. I was hoping that for as long as the SxS cards are so expensive, I could only record the 35Mbps stuff to them but should I need longer recording time, use the DR60 instead to get HDV...

[mikkowilson]

moldcad; I was told at IBC that yes the DR60 (and all other HDV decks/recorders) will work with EX1 in "SQ" (25mbps) mode.

- Mikko

[arges03]

Great info on the XDCAM/XDCAM-EX Barry! Lots of us are interested, especially with recent the hype around the EX-1. Thanks for breaking down some of the info related to the formats.

[moldcad]

moldcad; I was told at IBC that yes the DR60 (and all other HDV decks/recorders) will work with EX1 in "SQ" (25mbps) mode.

- Mikko
Mikko, thanks - yes I've heard that, but does the EX1 handle the DR60 in the "synchro" mode like the V1 does? Does it have anything in the menu/status screens for that purpose? And, last but not least, can I record to the DR60 without an SxS card?

[mikkowilson]

Those specific details I don't have, sorry. :(

- Mikko

[Simon Wyndham]

This is significant, because it means that of the extra 10 megabits that XDCAM-HD gets over HDV, about half of that is spent on audio.

Wrong. The 35M/bits/sec figure is for the video only. The audio is on top of that.

[Barry_Green]

That was the question -- so you're saying that the file size on an XDCAM-HD disc can theoretically go to 41 megabits (35 video, six audio)? I thought the write speed of the blu-ray disc used in XD-HD was only 36 megabits?

[Tim Le]

I thought the write speed of the blu-ray disc used in XD-HD was only 36 megabits?

The write speed of Professional Disc is capable of at least 50 Mbps since SD XDCAM was capable of 50 Mbps MPEG-IMX and the new MPEG HD422 can do 50 Mbps.

I think Simon is probably right. Sony says that a 23.3 GB single layer PD holds about 60 min of 35 Mbps HD video. So if we take 23.3 GB ( 23,300,000,000 bytes like the way storage is advertised) and convert that to bits, it's 186,400,000,000 bits. Divide that by the time (60 min = 3600 sec) and we get a bitrate of 51.7 Mbps. This is the theoretical, constant bit rate needed to fill up a 23.3 GB disc in 60 mins. Taken another way, if the 35 Mbps bitrate was the limit for both video and audio, it would fill up 15.8 GB in 60 mins, which is far below the capacity of the disc.

So it seems to make sense that the 35 Mbps of XDCAM-HD is only for video, especially since that bitrate is also VBR....unless my math is wrong :huh:

[Simon Wyndham]

Tim is correct. The max allowable data rate for video is around 50Mbps. The actual write speed is higher than this figure though because of overheads for proxy file creation and audio.

The drive units in the new 335 and 355 cameras are just shy of being twice as fast (120Mbps read speed compared to the current 70-75Mbps).

[TimurCivan]

interesting. Very interesting. I am very excited by this new camera.

[Elton]

I'm also VERY interested in this camera. The specs are phenomenal but it'll be interesting to see if it lives up to the CineAlta badge once it's out in the wild and getting a good shakedown. (hopefully without too much rolling shutter ;-) )

[dchai]

Played around with this baby, the lens is excellent, the matrix settings are very very customizable and the Sony rep says that the ISO is equivalent of ASA 800. I pointed around and am extremely impressed with the low light performance, low noise and clean image. Not noisy at all like the Panasonic HVX200 and even HPX500. This camera is going to sell like hot cakes. The resolution is clearly there, the CMOS has a more pleasing skin tone to my eye than even the higher priced XDCAM cameras.

Very exciting indeed.
David :D

[rayman5252]

Hey guys - If you want a not so technical comparrison ... I have used them both and I am OVER long-GOP formats with 4:0:0 color space!
First of all, pulling a decent key off any flavor of GOP footage is less then fun ... the Chroma Key better be PERFECT otherwise you are gonna have problems (not that it shouldn't always be a perfectly lit chroma backdrops to all those "we'll fix it in post" shooters out there).
Second, edit systems like the AVID can edit this stuff "real time" but wait until you do an output! Forget outputting "same as source" ... AVID choose to allow real time editing, but the footage needs to be transcoded sometime - so it does it on the way out. From what i hear version 3.5 of AVID Media Composer does something to address this, but we'll see ... wouldn't be the first time something over promised and under delivered.
Finally, I think DVCPro-HD looks better then the EX-1 (for full disclosure I have an HVX-200a). I shot a pilot for a potential TV show and one of our SONY cams went down right before the shoot so I grabbed my HVX and filled in. The low data rate XDCam stuff looks pretty good when there isn't alot going on, but when you start moving the camera around (especially in low light) the low data rate compression really breaks down. This may just be personal preference, but the HVX looked richer and better then the EX-1. Having said that, I would much rather pay what the SONY guys are paying for their memory cards then what Panasonic is charging me (what gives Panasonic? We know these are just glorified Flash drives!)

[Kenny_G]

Having said that, I would much rather pay what the SONY guys are paying for their memory cards then what Panasonic is charging me (what gives Panasonic? We know these are just glorified Flash drives!)

Yeah, the Panasonic is great but the price of the P2-cards is a rip-off.
And all the BS of being cheap if you look at the fact that one can use them many many times compared to probably tapes, is just to throw sand in your eyes. The price should come down to say 200us$ for a 16gb P2 card.

An other thing that I cannot understand is since the price for the V-lock batteries is so high, we better use two 7000mAh lithium-Ion batteries in series in an V-lock adapter to do the job. A 7000mAh battery cost 60us$.

[Barry_Green]

The price should come down to say 200us$ for a 16gb P2 card.
Wow.

You do know that Sony is charging $745 for a 16GB SxS card, right? At the B&H discounted price (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/528236-REG/Sony_SBP_16_SBP_16_16GB_SxS_PRO.html)?

And SanDisk (http://www.sandisk.com/Products/Item(2597)-SDX-VS-016G-A101-SanDisk_Express_ExpressCard_16GB.aspx)charges $823.53 for their 16GB SxS card, right?

And, you know Red is charging $495 for a 16GB CompactFlash card (http://www.red.com/store/502006), right? And that's not P2, that's compact flash. No processor, no raid controller, no firmware, no computer inside, just a compactflash card.

So, really? $200 for a 16GB P2 card? Seems a tad unrealistic.

[mico]

Adorama a legitimate B&H competitor sells the sandisk SXS for $649.95 if you're going for true street discounted prices. Their 16gb P2 is $794.95

[rubento]

You can compare both codecs by viewing 2 of my music videos, " Buena Letra" shot on EX1 (and Canon 5D MKII) and "Consuelo" on HDV and DigiBeta. Take a look...


Rafas Tena's "Buena Letra":

http://www.vimeo.com/4052886

Rafa Tena's "Consuelo" :

http://www.vimeo.com/4078504



Ruben

[Kenny_G]

Wow.

You do know that Sony is charging $745 for a 16GB SxS card, right? At the B&H discounted price (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/528236-REG/Sony_SBP_16_SBP_16_16GB_SxS_PRO.html)?

And SanDisk (http://www.sandisk.com/Products/Item(2597)-SDX-VS-016G-A101-SanDisk_Express_ExpressCard_16GB.aspx)charges $823.53 for their 16GB SxS card, right?

And, you know Red is charging $495 for a 16GB CompactFlash card (http://www.red.com/store/502006), right? And that's not P2, that's compact flash. No processor, no raid controller, no firmware, no computer inside, just a compactflash card.

So, really? $200 for a 16GB P2 card? Seems a tad unrealistic.

Barry, I have great respect for your technical knowledge and the effort you take in placing your technical opinion on this site, but really Barry, why don't we start something to get pricing down. Pricing for equipment should not be related to what people are willing to pay for it. It should be related to what is in the box and how much it costs to produce it. A fair percentage of say 30% or even 50% is more than enough IMO. Of course there is this psychological effect that some people just want to have something that others cannot buy because it is too expensive, but really guys wake up. Don't let the companies rule your economical life. We are the customers - the kings - and not the companies.
P2 and SxS is a rip-off, period.

[William_Robinette]

Barry, I have great respect for your technical knowledge and the effort you take in placing your technical opinion on this site, but really Barry, why don't we start something to get pricing down. Pricing for equipment should not be related to what people are willing to pay for it. It should be related to what is in the box and how much it costs to produce it. A fair percentage of say 30% or even 50% is more than enough IMO. Of course there is this psychological effect that some people just want to have something that others cannot buy because it is too expensive, but really guys wake up. Don't let the companies rule your economical life. We are the customers - the kings - and not the companies.
P2 and SxS is a rip-off, period.

Do the R&D, build the product, test it, make it bomb proof, then package and sell it to a market much much smaller then that for consumer compact flash or SD cards.

Tell me how much lower then the current prices from Panasonic and Sony you can get.

[Joe Lawry]

Im going to go on the record and say i dont trust my SxS cards let alone my MxR cards running SanDisk ultra2s anywhere as much as i trusted my P2 Cards.

I seem to recently be getting a lot of restore media errors with the SxS in my EX1 just randomly, about 70% of the time its when the camera has come back from a rental and the idiot operator doesnt really know what they are doing and just rip the battery off the camera and put it away, not idea what the card was doing at the time. But then it sometimes randomly does it to me as well. The media is usually there, but still, it should not be doing this with the official sony cards.

I now only use my MxRs as a back up on all jobs. They might be cheap but i dont trust them enough for the professional work i do.

The cards work, but they are not as bullet proof as p2.

Come on panasonic, give me a decent full raster camera head in a hand held camera.

Right now im glad i still have my original HVX and almost 64gigs worth of p2 cards. Its actually getting a bit of use at the moment.

[GuyB]

The "Restore Media" has nothing to do with the SxS or SD media, it is to do with the XDCAM EX usage of the media. If a recording is interupted by ripping the power from the camera, the file system leaves an open file on the FAT32 partition. The camera recognises this and asks to restore the media, whereby it verifies the open file and truncates it at the last valid finish to a GOP. It then updates the meta data as well I assume and closes the file.
Otherwise you could end up with a corrupted file, not the fault of the camera or the media, but the user. The system is there to protect Mr Idiot who goes yanking power from the camera while recording.

If your getting Restore Media errors in normal operations then there is either something wrong with your particular piece of media or camera.

I have been shooting with SxS and KxS for over a year now and never had to restore media unless something had gone wrong (like failed power).

What happens in a P2 based system if you eject the P2 media while it is being recorded too?

[Kenny_G]

Do the R&D, build the product, test it, make it bomb proof, then package and sell it to a market much much smaller then that for consumer compact flash or SD cards.

Tell me how much lower then the current prices from Panasonic and Sony you can get.

The P2 and the SxS was made to rip you off.
Sony and Pana could easely have build-in a removable 2.5" harddrive.
But that would not given given them any extra profit.
The story that it is not reliable and draw too much current is BS IMO.
Where do you have to store your back-ups? On a harddrive of course.
You can get a solidstate harddive of 120GB for less than 500 bucks, so what are we talking about. P2 and SxS is a rip-off; they only serve the seller(Pana and Sony)

It doesn't matter how much R&D and other stuff you did on a product.
It only adds up to the costprice. But for example if you make a car that is the best car ever made and everybody likes it and wants to buy it. There is only a "minor" problem with this car; it run on fuel that you only can supply and of course the price for the fuel is high. That's the P2 and the SxS.

[MitchLewis]

I was pleasantly surprised at how good the HDV footage looked when I shot some using our Sony EX3 (1080 60i SQ format.....same as HDV)