HPX500 screws for base plate

[Icarus2005]

I actaully love the camera, my problem is that they have VERY CHEAP screws holding it together!

When I tried to remove the plate to mount my rods, one of the screws stripped! And this happened to the only other person I know with the camera! That tells me the problem is systemic, not an anomally.

I need pana to send me a new screw to replace the stripped one.

I understand them using cheaper screws in places no one is going to take apart, but changing to rails on one place most professionals ARE going to take apart. So they use only the very best screws.

[EditingFX]

Maybe you work out at the gym too often? ;) Sorry to hear about that, seriously.

[pathfinder]

Thanks for the warning. I'll be more careful with mine when the rods arrive.

[monkeyking]

It's not a matter of cheap screws. Those screws are also kind of "glued" in with a locktite type substance. They should be sprayed with some kind of solvent first to loosen them up. AbelCine also uses a special phillips tool to remove them. I discovered this after nearly stripping same screws myself.
Other users here have successfully removed those screws. At least one person has stripped a screw.

[Ed Waters]

I also stripped a screw on the base plate. Stange since the camera itself is built like a tank.

[Uli Mors]

Well, industry often uses quite "soft" screws - fitted with locktite sometimes as well.

Having the right Screwdriver is the only magic...

I wanted to open a digital mixer for easy service reasons and stripped 5 out of ~30 screws - boooh....

In your case, simply look into "official" Philips Screwdrivers - Philips SC2 is often used an its VERY sharp.

NEVER use battery driven screwer - you need "manual" sense to not strip the screws - and this happens too easily with a motor drive.

ULI

[monkeyking]

Uli,
Great advice about sharp screwdrivers ! What do you advise for "unlocking" loctite?

[vidled]

Depending on which Loctite they use[d], removable or permanent, the only way to losen it might be with something like this (although in this particular case it may NOT be advisable):

http://www.chiemgau-impact.com/images/experimente/image004.jpg

You could try and EVER SO SLIGHTLY tap on the head of the screw with an appropriately sized flat-bottom punch, but alas, if they used permanent Loctite, and at the small size screw we're talking about, it probably will have little effect.

[monkeyking]

Pretty sure it was not permanent loctite ! just something to keep the screws from loosening out. some kind of solvent - would a drop of Goo B Gone on each screw head help?

[vidled]

Well, if it's NOT the permanent kind, you should be fine with using simple hand tools.
You could try Acetone, as that should soften Loctite threadlocker, but I doubt it would actually penetrate the threads suffciently in order to be effective.
Once disassembled though, you could use Acetone as a cleaning aid in removing the Loctite left-over.

[vidled]

BTW, typical Loctite threadlocker colors are: RED for permanent and BLUE for removable.

[Mac]

It is possible to get the screws out eventually, but I would call a dealer to ask them what they use (like AbleCineTech where they rent and thus are also attaching matteboxes)..

I've said this before numerous times... The problem with those screws - which are M3s, (metric) by the way, available at any hardware store - is that those four tiny, "soft" screws are literally the only thing holding that heavy camera to a tripod when you use the baseplate... Sure, it's fitted into the pin at the back, but that doesn't provide much lateral support...

I don't know about you, but I slam the camera in (out of old habit) to be sure it locks to the tripod - and those screws are taking all that abuse...

When you get them out, throw them away and buy four stainless- -or Grade 8 if you can find them - M3 screws that are 1/4" longer (the matte box plate is thicker and you're left with only 4 or 5 threads with the stock screws).. I didn't LockTite mine, I just check them regularly (in case one does break and I need to get it out later)...

I have also made two simple rectangles of aluminum and screwed them to the matte box plate to reduce lateral stress..

This is THE weakness of this camera....

[Jan_Crittenden]

They really are not cheap screws. Actually the reason they strip in the process of trying to get them out is that they use a lock-tite product to keep them in and so there is more resistance to the turning than one might expect. The fact is that it is the very same mechanism that has held our cameras onto tripods for the last 12 years and for those 18 years not a single camera has fallen off the tripod. To me that is a good thing. I would say that if you are trying to rmove these then have a dealer do it for you, one that has done it before as they can be undone, just carefully.

Best,

Jan

[monkeyking]

What Jan said....
Several months ago at AbelCine/NY , I saw the special screwdriver theyused to remove those same screws. They also referred to some kind of solvent to loosen the loctite-like substance. Not sure if it was specifically loctite or something similar.
I bought some "better " phillips screwdrivers and lubricant but made no headway.
I don't want to bring it back to NY just to loosen 4 screws. Guess I'll find a local shop in the Wash. DC area.

[Jan_Crittenden]

You could try Specialized Communications or Washington Professional Systems. These both have good service facilities that should be able to help you. They prbably will charge you if you didn't buy the camera from them however.

Best,

Jan

[Mac]

Jan: The problem, as I understand it, is that we (HPX500 owners) are attaching a mini-rod base plate that was originally designed for the Varicam - It works, but when attached to the Varicam it also uses three larger (10/32 size but metric) screws in the "V" of the plate (where the tripod plate attaches)...

The HPX500 depends on only those four little M3s - which are too short for the Chrosziel plate, which is thicker.

Additionally, the stock plate from the HPX500 has two (if memory serves) registration pins that fit into depressions on the bottom of the camera... that setup keeps the camera from shearing the M3 screws by preventing lateral movement when on a tripod.

As I've said several times on this and another forum, I have tried to replicate the support that those pins provide by making two simple rectangle plates that are drilled and tapped into the sides of the mini-rod plate (by the way, they have to be carefully fitted if you are using the Panasonic tripod adapter - I use the Sony, so there's more room for slop).

Remember, people often carry a camera around over their shoulder, attached to the tripod - It is scary to think of that relatively heavy camera hanging on a tripod, attached only by four soft (I agree, not cheap) M3 screws..

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi,

I won't argue that you may have seen the Varicam with Stainless screws, but those were not the original screws. The mounting of the little plate that needs to be removed for a rail system is the exact same as the HPX500. The reason people are stripping the screws is the screws are LOC-tited in and that has to be dealt with before attempting to remove the screws. I have more faith in these little screws not giving way than I have of that tripod quick release plate not giving way.

Best,

Jan

[Mac]

Jan: I won't dispute the fact that the screws may not fail - but as someone who has built hotrods for much of his life, I am a person who knows what can happen when a tiny, seemingly irrelevent part fails... lots of not very complimentary language focused at the manufacturer of the part...

[Jan_Crittenden]

Jan: I won't dispute the fact that the screws may not fail - but as someone who has built hotrods for much of his life, I am a person who knows what can happen when a tiny, seemingly irrelevent part fails... lots of not very complimentary language focused at the manufacturer of the part...

Hi,

Thanks for your input. I would like to say that while indeed there are people that have said some uncomplimentary things about these parts, the reality is that we have been using this same setup for the last 11 years or so and haven't lost a camera to the system yet. Where it seems to run into the bugaboo is where people want to take this piece off and set up a different setup for the rail system. So the point of my post is that people should know that they need to resolve the loc-tite and then proceed to loosen the screws. This issue is not an issue for a failing part it is an issue when they want to change out the part and frankly that is a far cry from what you paint as the potential situation.

Thanks,

Jan

[Mac]

Jan: Don't get me wrong, I really like this camera.. other than these screws and the 5600d preset (another thread), both of which are fixable, it is an excellent piece of professional equipment, not even considering it's affordability... this is meant as feedback from a working professional with too many years experience - for R&D - and not as a condemnation.

In this case it is Chrosziel that needs, in my opinion, to redesign their plate so that it reproduces the little bumps that register into the bottom of this camera, becaue it's not the same as the Varicam.. it is the "shearing" effect that concerns me, not the tensile strength of the screws per se...

In my case I have made the aforementioned simple plates to try and reproduce that support - but I would buy an improved Chrosziel when available...

[Jay Nemeth]

I used the right sized screwdriver, pushed it firmly into the screws, and removed all four of them without having to do anything else. The blue locktite will simply crack free with the right amount of pressure. I used the same screws again to attach the chrosziel plate and have had no problems. There is no shearing force unless the screws are loose and the plate can wiggle around. It's the pressure of the chrosziel plate being pressed to the the camera that makes it a solid installation. If the heads are are even slightly stripped, you won't be able to tighten them adequately.

[monkeyking]

#1 Phillips right? Maybe they used more locktite on my screws. No luck.

[pathfinder]

I will have to say that Panasonic used cheap screws and they are too small for that big of a camera. Lots of weight rest on those four tiny screws. I like the camera a lot though.

Anyways, I took my camera down to Cinequipt here in Minneapolis and here's how they get it out without stripping them. I rent equipments often from them so they helped me for free.

1. Make sure your camera is hold upside down firmly
2. Use right size screw (doesn't have to be a phillips)
3. Fit the screw driver firmly into the screw
3. Use a small rubber hammer to tap the screw gently a few times.
4. Now apply good pressure downward and twist slightly back and forth a few times.
5. Now press down hard and firm and unscrew it.

Those small and soft screws are screwed in there very tight but this is how they got it out. I'm pretty sure if you guys use a little patience and follow the above steps you can get them out yourself with any right size screw.

They replaced those cheap screws with better ones.

[Mac]

I'm going to have to agree with Jan here - they are not "cheap" screws.. there would be no logical reason to save a penny on screws.. and they are black anodized, which costs more than manufacturing the screws themselves...

Manufacturers often chose soft screws because if a screw does break, it will have to be drilled out, and it is easier to do that if the metal around the hole is harder than the screw shaft... Also, soft screws are preferred by people who believe that hard screws can be brittle and crack on impact, whereas a soft screw will give and not break (you know, like the proverbial willow vs oak tree saga).

In this case however, where there is no other structural support, I would replace them with stainless or grade 8 screws that are longer to be sure that the entire threaded area in the camera is being used. Just hope they never break.

[Icarus2005]

Jan,

I love this camera and am happy with it for what I paid. But I think it's clear that there are a LARGE number of people having the same problem with these screws.

As such, I think it would behoove Panasonic to include a warning sticker on the plates for those owners that intend to remove said plate. It might prevent posts like these in blogs that might be less than flattering for Panasonic.

fortunately I got mine off, but if had been on set trying to do this at the last minute and wasn't able to use follow focus or matte box because of it, it might have really ruined my day, and surely you can see how the potential is there for it to ruin some cinematographers day or reputation should such an event occur.

just my 2 cents

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi,

These same screws are the same screws that we have put on every camera that we have manufactured since 1996, at least. They will not likely change. When removing them take the proper process and they will come out. Not, and you will strip them.

If unclear on what to do call the service center.

Thanks,

Jan

[pathfinder]

Jan, just my humble opinion but I think these screws do have it's problems. One shouldn't even have to call a service center or take it to a local pro camera shop to get it off after spending 15 grand on it. I've used Sony pro cameras and I know the difference between a good screw and a not so good screw. Sony is the winner when it comes to having good screws and getting them off easily with any right size screw driver.

I think it wouldn't hurt to mention this problem to Panasonic. If Panasonic intends to market this camera to the digital cinematographers who will most likely put on a rod system plate, Panasonic should seriously think about those screws. They are small and short too.

Don't get me wrong though, I like the camera alot...for it's price and what it can do.

Samuel M. Lee

[ggrantly]

For all it is worth, while SS fasteners have a reputation as being better, that is not always the case. They do offer improved resistance to corrosion, but only average sterength, depending on grade. The standard SS fastener material is type 304 which is roughly the same tensile strength to a common grade 5 steel fastener. Type 316 alloy is somewhat superior and in most cases will be a special order from supply companies. In addition, all stainless has an increased tendency to thread gall, which would simply ruin your day, and your threads. If using SS, check the fit of each fastener for fit and smoothness in the threaded hole, If it is rough in any way, throw it away and try another. It is surprising how much fasteners will vary.

Grade 5 steel is a typical grade found in many applications unless the manufacturer really cheaped out. These may be plated (cadmium), or not, and it will make zero difference in strength. Grade 8 is the way to go for strength, and will greatly improve the ability of the fasteners ability to not strip under the pressure of tools for removal. Thread cutting on grade 8 is superior also. If broken, as one lister pointed out, there is hell to pay since they will be very difficult to drill out.

I haven't seen the specific application on the camera, but if the fasteners are embeded in aluminum or plastic, large improevments in fastening strength can be made by using helicoils to hold the fasteners in the body, and may allow you to upsize the fastening system also. There needs to be enough meat around the existing tapped holes for this to happen due to the larger diamter of the hole receiving the helicoil.

And, a word about locktite. If you choose to apply new locktite, make sure to remove the old stuff from the threads, and there are specific cleaners made by locktite for this. These cleaners, and acetone, should be carefully checked for compatability with any plastic nearby, which can cause severe damage. And one last thing, some thread sealers are NOT campatable with plated fasteners and will corrode-degrade the plating. Check the fine print on the locktite product you choose.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion

Best Regards

[Mac]

ggrantly: exactly right, grade 8 is the way to go and avoid LockTite unless you know what you are doing.. I suggested SS mainly because grade 8 M3s aren't readily available, at least where I am, and the heads are harder (and not phillips), making a secure installation and removal easier.