Screw Premiere - I'm switching to Vegas

[c.g._eads]

After spending the last 12 days trying to figure out why P2.0 won't capture from my camera, why scene detect wouldn't work even if it did, why it won't play audio from time to time --- for no apparent reason (as it will just come back on when it feels like it), and why for the past 7 days I've been trying to do something as simple as get my editing program to see the video that I hve imported into my project (instead I get the generic "media pending" screenshot), I've decided to leave Premiere in the dust, where it belongs. I'm sick of it. And the more I look back at my experiences with this program, the more I realized that every single project I worked on (most of them very small) I've always run into at least 5 and usually closer to 15 glitchy problems. The only reason I didn't switch from it earlier was because I was used to the software and Macs cost way too much. To me, Vegas always looked kind of weird. But I've heard nothing but good things about it and it's native support of HD (read: "footage that doesn't say 'media pending' when you import it") was enough to sell me. That and sitting at my computer for the umpteenth time trying out a different solution and then coming to the realization, "I've spent the last 12 days doing nothing. I set out to edit my project almost 2 weeks ago and I haven't edited a single frame.". That's when it hit me that I was done with this program.

My experience of searching endlessly through the internet these past two weeks has taught me a lot about Premiere. I've read through countless posts in upwards of 6 different premiere related message boards. I know these boards only deal with users' problems and therefore are not indicative of the product's quality. But the thing I kept finding, more than any other piece of software that I've ever had to troubleshoot, is the level of frustration users have with this software. What should be fairly straight-forward offerings from a company are simply ignored. Do you know you can't export a full 1080i video back to tape through Premiere 2.0 for more than 6 minutes? Adobe, after blaming everybody but themselves over a period of months, finally came forth and admitted this. Then said they didn't know if they'd ever offer a solution. These kinds of things are unacceptable in my opinion. And even if someone comes around and says "oh they fixed that" or "oh, there's a workaround" or "it's taken care of in CS3", I don't care. Because the problem is emblematic of who they are as a company and how they approach their product. There are little glitches like that all over the place and I'm sick of it. As a result I've decided to terminate my relationship with Premiere and move on to Vegas, even if it means learning a whole new program. I figure I'll waste way less time learning how to use Vegas than I will troubleshooting all my projects in Premiere. So..... adios Premiere!

[MattinSTL]

The ONLY reason I'm replying to this thread is because of timing I saw the title as I scrolled down the main page... otherwise I never would have even seen it... and I think there's always potential for the "mac v. pc" type of thing blowing up... but I came from 5 years of premiere and thought I'd never go to Vegas because it looked all wonkey to me also... but let me tell you... after not even a year on Vegas... there is NO going back. Vegas completely changed my perception of how easy editing a video should be.

In all fairness... there isn't a good titling function in Vegas... you gotta' get that some other way... but aside from that one caveat... I couldn't be happier... and it was GLITCHES, bugs, and crashes that pushed me away from premiere... all of which Vegas does not suffer.

[egproductions]

adios...

[Kdawg]

I've been thinking along the same lines. Is vegas the way to go? I see the new Vegas 8 is coming out.

[c.g._eads]

well, I am so sick of Premiere that I'm willing to go with Vegas knowing absolutely nothing about the program. Mattin's experience is one I hear very often, however.

[Ronbo]

I have been with Premiere for years and every time I up grade I wonder why. I have been met with as many problems as fixes in the last version. I think fixes should be free not the next version.

So here I am with Ppro 2.0 considering upgrading to CS3. I went to 2.0 for the HDV capability now I have to buy “neo” at minimum $250 (and that is without a realtime render engine) because everyone says that is the only way to get good video out of HDV. Why is that not included in Premiere?

I am starting to think the Premiere is nothing but an expensive place holder for expensive plugins. The workflow for getting a good looking video out of HDV in Premiere is ridiculous.

I said this last time I upgraded that I was going to look a Vegas and something turned me off. Now here I am again. Should I buy another plugin and hope it works with the new Cs3 or buy Cs3 and hope it works without the plugin, and if (when) it doesn’t wait for the new plug in that will work with Cs3.

Why do I keep sticking with Premiere? I know it is the promise of integration with after effects. Why do I have to go to after effects for things that should be available right on the Premiere time line? OK, I am better now. I am off to Cineform website to look at NEO.

[Barry_Green]

Vegas has historically been absolutely fantastic. Rock solid reliable, and it could edit absolutely anything you threw at it. FCP people are excited about the "open timeline"; Vegas had that back in Version 4.0, around four years ago! You could open almost any kind of file in Vegas; you could put HD and SD on the same timeline; you could put PAL and NTSC on the same timeline; you could put 50i and 24p on the same timeline. You could put JPGs or PICTs or MOVs or even Animated GIFs right on the timeline. You could even drag the .VOB files off of a DVD and edit those right on the timeline!

But all is not as it was. Since Sony bought Vegas, it's headed on a more proprietary bent. It started with the HVX, where Vegas wouldn't support the MXF file structure -- Vegas only supports Sony MXF files. It continues with AVC-HD, where Vegas only supports Sony AVC-HD: if you have a Canon or Panasonic AVC-HD camcorder, Vegas currently won't work with it. For that reason, I advise that someone who intends to work with non-Sony equipment to carefully evaluate whether Vegas does what they need. If it doesn't currently support your intended equipment, and that equipment is made from a company other than Sony, then you may want to consider as to whether Vegas will ever adapt to support that equipment.

I've used Vegas with the HV20, it works fine but it cannot (by itself) remove the 2:3 pulldown from HV20 files. There are posted workarounds elsewhere, that involve using VirtualDub or other workarounds.

[Capt Quirk]

Since we're basically throwing NLE bugs into the ring, what are the downsides to Avid? I'm also a disheartened Premiere user.

[Ogrus]

what a group of whiners...

[William_Robinette]

Welcome to the light side.

[Neil Rowe]

"c.g._eads", it sounds like your having hardware issues or issues with your system running PPRO. i can certainly understand your frustration, and if that happend to me i would be quite fed up as well. but its really not a typical situation for someone running PPRO to necissarily say that the software istelf is somehow inferior. youll find bugs and fixes, hardware compatability issues, features you know they could have but dont for some rediculous reason if any at all, and general pains in the butt a plenty accross the board of every edit package out there. although ill say with complete understanding that vegas is a much easier tool to use. although I prefer the workflow of say FCP or PPRO as well as the wide range of professional plugins , and synergized interconnectivity with other pro apps available for them, to the more consumer-like interface of vegas. now to barrys point, vegas is very forward looking and always seems to be among the first to incorporate new functionality with ease. and the vegas people seem to much more readily listen to what thier users want, and get it done sooner. but the beauty about the entire thing is that it really doesnt matter what i like, or what you like. just use whatever your most comfortable with and what does the trick and lets you maximize your creative potential without maximizing your frustration. its just a tool. some people may prefer spoon to a fork, but they can both get the job done. ..mac.. pc .. PPRO. FCP , Vegas, Edius, AVID, whatever... im not saying you should stick with PPRO, or try FCP , or anything like that. im just saying, for whatever reason.. if the shoe doesnt fit, just get one that does, and realize that the first one you tried works perfectly for alot of OTHER people, even though it may not be what suits you the best.

im not trying to play devils advocate here or anything juvenile like that. honestly im always just a little leary of the "the grass is greener somehwre else" posts within a section like this because any threads that start out with a bridge to burn and a bone to pick are only likely to end worse than they started, and even at best, it doesnt really contribute anything. i mean .. here we are 11 posts later and aside from barry's advice as to what to consider when thinking about using vegas, nothing has been accomplished or started that is of any benefit of the community. my post included. so perhaps we could take this in a positive direction with either some sort of actual constructive search for information or something else beneficial to the PPRO section, or we could just let it die and hear from you once your comfortably in the vegas section seeking tips on your new kickin editing app :)

[c.g._eads]

Hey Neil, I do believe something's been accomplished. I admit that my frustration drives this post, but this is a post based off of 8 years of experience, and the point I'm trying to make is, if you're like me and extremely frustrated with this software but you don't change because you know it so well and you don't want to take the time to learn a whole new piece of software, maybe it's time to reevaluate if you're really saving any time.

I kind of want to give the Premiere users the wake-up call that all those problems you encounter on a day-to-day basis with Premiere, all those updates that never come, all those bugs and output nightmares... you don't have to work with a program like that. There are other options out there. KDawg said it himself. He's thinking about doing the same thing. And maybe this post changed his mind. I plan to keep this thread going with some updates about my experiences with Vegas to show just how easy or difficult it is for an 8-year premiere user to try a totally different program. So far it's great. I imported my HD footage without a hiccup and I was up and editing literally within seconds (instead of the 12 days I was waiting for in Premiere 2.0 -- I don't know how it can be a hardware issue if Vegas can handle it no problem) My only problem is getting used to the lack of a preview window, which I'm slowly learning is still there, it's just used in the same window as the timeline window and navigated into by using the trimmer. I like the ease in which you can stretch or condense time (right on the timeline), add effects, and the way the editor is built around how a person would think. Instead of how they want you to conform to. There's this really cool option where you can turn the video track bigger than the preview window. It's just cool. Not the nightmare of learning everything all over again that I had dreaded. Also, I did a search on google for "Sony Vegas tutorials" and a tutorial came up for first-time users. It gave me a quick introduction into the program so it wasn't so intimidating.

Anyway, I think this is more constructive than you think. I don't even think it's a Premiere vs. Vegas issue. I think it's a company that cares vs. a company that doesn't.

Best,
Chris

[Huy Vu]

Hey Neil, I do believe something's been accomplished. I admit that my frustration drives this post, but this is a post based off of 8 years of experience, and the point I'm trying to make is, if you're like me and extremely frustrated with this software but you don't change because you know it so well and you don't want to take the time to learn a whole new piece of software, maybe it's time to reevaluate if you're really saving any time.

Anyway, I think this is more constructive than you think. I don't even think it's a Premiere vs. Vegas issue. I think it's a company that cares vs. a company that doesn't.

Best,
Chris

Actually Chris I do think that this thread aren't doing any good. I've been a Premiere user since version 6.5 and it has always work well for me. Neil definitely has a point that even though it doesn't work well for you, there are plenty of other users who are willing to swear by the product. How many of those people aren't responding to your complaints because they're busy editing on Premiere right now?

This is quickly becoming a one-sided laundry list of the ways in which Vegas are superior to Premiere, and sooner or later a Premiere expert is going to chime in and it's going to get out of control. I'm glad that Vegas is working well for you and if it does what you need, then that's great. But please understand that venting your one-sided frustration in order to discredit a product is hardly productive, especially since that same product has worked well for many other people.

[Capt Quirk]

I'm glad that Vegas is working well for you and if it does what you need, then that's great. But please understand that venting your one-sided frustration in order to discredit a product is hardly productive, especially since that same product has worked well for many other people.Well, I will agree there are issues within Premiere, some days they are more persistent than others. There are also posts complaining about Vegas, Avid, FCP... the only one you really don't see posts about is Windows Movie Maker. Hmmm...

[c.g._eads]

Actually Chris I do think that this thread aren't doing any good. I've been a Premiere user since version 6.5 and it has always work well for me. Neil definitely has a point that even though it doesn't work well for you, there are plenty of other users who are willing to swear by the product. How many of those people aren't responding to your complaints because they're busy editing on Premiere right now?

This is quickly becoming a one-sided laundry list of the ways in which Vegas are superior to Premiere, and sooner or later a Premiere expert is going to chime in and it's going to get out of control. I'm glad that Vegas is working well for you and if it does what you need, then that's great. But please understand that venting your one-sided frustration in order to discredit a product is hardly productive, especially since that same product has worked well for many other people.

I continue to insist that this is not Premiere vs. Vegas. This is "Premiere has screwed up for the last time" and Vegas is the only other real professional option for the PC that doesn't cost thousands of dollars. I think I've put forth a convincing argument for why this program isn't worth it and you'll be hard pressed to find people who use Premiere extensively and don't run into major problems, bugs, crashes, and shortcomings. Am I telling anybody who loves the program to ditch it? No. I'm happy that Premiere works for you. Am I telling the people who are fed up, on the fence, and afraid to learn a new program to think about changing? Yes, I am. And if that makes them more productive editors, then this thread is doing some good.

[Huy Vu]

I think I've put forth a convincing argument for why this program isn't worth it and you'll be hard pressed to find people who use Premiere extensively and don't run into major problems, bugs, crashes, and shortcomings.

I think I can say the same about Vegas, which is why we have a entire subforum on it. If I do a search right now, will I be unable to find Vegas users who have problems with their NLE? There's always room to grow and improve on a piece of software to increase the feature set and stability. It's difficult to say that one software is better or more stable than another because ultimately you have to look at the big picture. How many Premiere users are there? How many Vegas users? How many of them are represented on a forum like this one?

You say that Premiere is buggy, prone to crashing and lacks the features that you want. Does that necessarily applies across everyone who is using that software? Maybe for every user that runs into problem and post about it on msg boards, there are ten others for whom the program work just fine and don't feel the need to say anything.

It should just be this: if the program do what you need, use it. But please don't make generalization like this because it serves no purpose whatsoever.

[ThrillMedia]

I use Premiere and like it. I have had no problems capturing or editing with it. I love the integration with the rest of the suite, especially AE.

I also use NewTek's Speed Edit. It is awesome realtime any format editing. I really like realtime color correction, make a tweak hit play, no renders. So, it really depends on the job that I am doing on which NLE to use. I haven't used Vegas but I would easily recommend Speed Edit.

Curtis

[Capt Quirk]

Hey Curtis- what are your system specs for Speed Edit?

[PaPa]

i have not had 8 years of experience with premier, but rather around 5, and have yet to experience these glitches that you explain.

[Capt Quirk]

I've been using it since 4.5 or so, and they happen at times. My biggest issue of late, is the capture window hanging/ crashing. Could be I need more Ram, or just a different kind. It used to work fine with 1 Gig, then I got two sticks of 500meg, a faster processor, and a different but compatible board... and it has issues. One month I'm doing the Snoopy Happy Dance, the next month I'm cussing at Premiere.

[c.g._eads]

Jade, I believe the issue you think I have is against Premiere as a program. Like it doesn't live up to other NLEs. But my problem is more with Adobe. I don't think they care about their customers. That's why I'm making this argument. If it was just "I don't like Premiere, and neither should you," that would be a silly argument. But you ignore the fact that I'm an 8 year user. This isn't a flippant response to the company that makes the program. And what I'm trying to say is, Adobe doesn't care about its users. So if you do run into trouble with this program (not to say you will -- but you probably will), don't expect Adobe to be there for you. Cause they don't care.

And if you had read my original post, you'd have read that I know these forums aren't great representations for a product's quality since they were built for people to ask about problems. However, I can say without a second thought, that I have seen more frustration in the Premiere forums (across the web) than for any other software I've ever used.

[TeleDan]

I continue to insist that this is not Premiere vs. Vegas. This is "Premiere has screwed up for the last time" and Vegas is the only other real professional option for the PC that doesn't cost thousands of dollars. I think I've put forth a convincing argument for why this program isn't worth it and you'll be hard pressed to find people who use Premiere extensively and don't run into major problems, bugs, crashes, and shortcomings.

LOL I don't see how you can say this is not a "Premiere vs. Vegas" thread other than you've already drawn all the conclusions and now plan to fill in with the justification. One needs to look no further than the title of this thread to see that. I simpathize that you've had serious problems with Premiere but I agree with others here that you're making generalizations that are not representative of most Premiere users.

I, for one, have used every version of Premiere since 6.5 and it's been very stable for me. Right now I am editing HDV footage from a Canon A1 in native HDV mode (no Cineform) and it's working well for me. Not that I don't have issues but what NLE out there doesn't have issues.

If you find that Vegas works best for you, great! However, I, for one, am not particularly interested in your plan to use this forum to evangelize others. If you really feel the need, please start a new thread over in the Vegas forum with a more positive title. I'm sure that anyone thinking of switching will be able to find it there.

-Dan

[DeVi| D0do]

Despite my fair share of capture problems, audio problems, compatibility problems etc. I still think Premiere Pro is a decent NLE. I'm also running FCP6 at the moment and there isn't really a heck of a lot that it can do that PP2 can't. But the problems with the audio not playing in PP are a pain in the arse to say the least.

I mainly prefer FCP for it's support of the DVCProHD format.

[c.g._eads]

well, this thread is out there for people who don't share the opinion of the "satisfied" Premiere customers. If it makes a few more lives easier, I'm happy because I don't believe in a company that shortchanges and takes advantage of its customers. Vegas is out there. And if you have a few more bucks, so is FCP.

[Shooter]

....
I mainly prefer FCP for it's support of the DVCProHD format.


I have never had too many show stopping ssues with Premiere and I have been with it from the very outset but I am migrating to FCP for mainly the same reasons as DOdo.

I feel that I have outgrown Premiere and it did not grow with me and my needs. eg HD , mxf, P2 , batch export, multiple open projects, OMF etc...

In fact I think it has been dumbed down a notch or two.

Must also say that it has served me very well and I will continue to use it for the many legacy projects I need to refer to and reuse regularly but I am very excited by the prospect of Final Cut Studio 2.

[c.g._eads]

Yes, I would get FCP in a second if I could afford a new computer. The new studio suite looks awesome.

[siniarch]

man, what ever happened to this.
http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/commentary/cultofmac/2005/08/68501

[siniarch]

maybe this:
http://uneasysilence.com/os-x-proven-hacked-and-running-on-an-ordinary-pc/

[PaPa]

correct me if im wrong, but running mac os X on a PC, granted its an intel chipset, would be rediculously crappy. The drivers would have to be completely reconfigured to be optimized for the mac way.

The same reason running Windows on a Mac is posisble, however yields horrible results when doing things that require a bit of juice ( video editing and rendering ) Just not optimized for windows and therefor hauls ass.

[ThrillMedia]

Hey Curtis- what are your system specs for Speed Edit?

Well, I just got a Quad 2.6, 3Gig Ram, nVidia 7600 512M, 2TB Sata which I am very happy with but it would have run on my previous Dual Xeon 2Gig with no problems.

It is super fast, you can output firewire, work in any res, realtime effects and cc, whatever. It will upres/downres on the fly too. It doesn't have batch capture so you still need Premiere for that. It will do Scene Detect on capture though so that's kind of a workaround depending on the project.

I would check out the NewTek site for system specs if you are interested.

[Capt Quirk]

Just curious what it takes to run smooth. Like I said, on my system, I only have a gig, half what Premiere requires. Prior to having to rebuild, it ran great.

[SeanEmer]

I propose a full round of NLEthnic cleansing. If everybody would edit on Avid, we wouldn't have to fight about which program was better, haha.

I've found - not personally, but from friends in these situations - that different NLEs like Vegas or Premiere or FCP run at extreme ends of the satisfaction bar based on how your system is set up. The programs are solid - if they weren't they wouldn't be so popular - but we have to remember that HD is a relatively new arrival on the Consumer and Prosumer market. Along with that comes a lot of hardware and software interaction that can cause a lot of problems. Of course the NLEs themselves can contribute to some of these problems, but I would be willing to bet that the vast amount of glitches, bugs, etc. that people get so fed up with in their respective Editors is more an issue of their workflow and hardware setup, or even how their editor's software is interacting with other software on the computer.


As an example of what I mean:

My house has two Avid stations. One of those stations is a dedicated system custom built for the explicit prupose of Avid editing. We don't run any programs alongside Avid when we use the computer, and it is not connected to the internet. The second station doubles as my own personal computer. It was custom built as well, but with certain hardware changes to allow me to use the computer for other purposes as well. I often run Avid on this computer with other programs running, including Internet Explorer, Adobe After Effects/Photoshop, sometimes an instant messenger, and email. I can tell you that I have encountered COUNTLESS more glitches, bugs, errors, etc. with my 'online' Avid than with our dedicated Avid.

To blame a program for not working perfectly in a not-necessarilly-perfect-environment isn't, in my opinion, justified.

[saturnin]

i've been a premiere user since i think premier 4 now i'm on premiere 2.0 and i love it.

I dont know why some ppl hae so many issues and bugs etc...

ever since i began editing i was always using intel chips and the best hardware i could get and am still doing it and the adobe software runs amazing. The only reason i'd switch is to go to final cut but why would i as i can do the same thing in premiere. It sux to see ppl have so many issues but hey... there are other softwares out there so go with what works for you.

Also my workstations are not connected to the internet and have nothing else running

[Kdawg]

I'll tell you I have had a few issues with premier pro 1.5 exporting 24pa squeeze. This is not just my hardware. I have another editor I work with experiencing the same thing. Export it to avi at all and it is unwatchable with the aspect ratio flickering. I have gone thru every senario. I do not have the time or money to spend going thru those different codecs. It only works if you export it 30 fps. Quicktime export in 24p works but is a huge file like After effects lostless export. This is an issue I have posted here as well as creative cow forums. Without an answer. Not a big deal, I figure I'll just have to shoot 4:3 and crop to a letterbox. Pisses me off to have to do that.

On top of that, adobe encore suddenly decides it will burn my dvd's up to a certain point and give me an error code. Hey I figure thats a fluke let me try it again, and again... because I have a friggin deadline to get this project done. Now lets try creating the project all over again... same thing!! Post at creative cow for help, the only answer is to create dvd folder, burn it from a different program. Let me search from my vast array of dvd programs, come on adobe!! Anyway that is now my work around, Hardware issue? no it worked before, and still works from Nero to burn em.

These along with some minor issues I have had gets me fed up. I was thinking if vegas is that much cheaper, but gets the job done with less issues, then for me its a no brainer. Now this post got me thinkin even more about it. I can see it from both sides though, that not every NLE has every issue perfected. So I find myself not wanting to spend the $500 that is burning a hole in my pocket on another NLE. I just wanted to see where this thread went.

[Huy Vu]

The early Adobe stuff like Encore and Premiere 6.0 are actually pretty buggy, but since then they've came a long way. I've yet to run into any crashes or error in Encore 2.0 and Premiere 2.0. Hopefully I can move on to CS3 soon.

[J.R. Hudson]

Anyone not using Vegas is missing out on a revelation. It's so intuitive, it's absurd.

It's simple, efficient, reliable and makes complete sense.

Forget about 'this -vs- that'. Download the demo, spend a month on it, and you won't go back.

[saturnin]

it might be very simple etc but why would someone spend a month or more to learn a new NLE, unless of course they not happy wif what they have.

I tried to learn vegas and it was just not workign for me.. .i coudlnt find the basic stuff, i'm sure if it was the first NLE i picked up i' would be still using it but it wasnt. Once again it comes down to the familiarity of a NLE that a said person has. I've never had errors or minor bugs or anything in premiere maybe i got lucky i dunno. i"ll keep using it till i move to mac etc.

[J.R. Hudson]

One may be used to and familiar with going around their ass to get to their elbow ....

[Huy Vu]

One may be used to and familiar with going around their ass to get to their elbow ....

John, I'm confused why as a mod you would jump into this discussing with such a polarizing statement. Premiere is a proven NLE and it's evident that many people here have used it successfully. This forum discourages debates on "which cameras is the best," so why not have the same policy for NLE?

[saturnin]

ahhahaha.. thats funny man... mad respek

and u know what, u might have a point there but in my case i felt the same way using vegas or other NLE...

after all isnt the whole point of being a video editor to be able to use your tools with efficiency? I am very efficient with premiere just as many ppl are efficient with vegas or any other software package. This topic always comes up and its funny to read ppls comments, ppl need to use what they know. @ this point all the NLE's can prettymuch do the same job just a matter of taste i say.



One may be used to and familiar with going around their ass to get to their elbow ....

[marketmd]

Anyone use Liquid 7? How does it compare to Premiere/Vegas?

How about Edius 4.5?

[marketmd]

But all is not as it was. Since Sony bought Vegas, it's headed on a more proprietary bent. It started with the HVX, where Vegas wouldn't support the MXF file structure -- Vegas only supports Sony MXF files. It continues with AVC-HD, where Vegas only supports Sony AVC-HD:

That is so typical of them, like with their laptops sporting the stupid Memory Stick for so long and no SD slots.

[cecil995]

Any editor out there is going to have difficulty with some type of file....especially HD. You just need to get the correct plug-ins to make it work.

[commalot]

From my experience almost all the problems I've had with applications, both video and music, turned out to be compatibility issues. The programs themselves work well. I use my computer for everything; video, music, internet. There's one particular sampling program from Tascam that when put on the same computer with a bunch of other stuff causes frequent crashes. Tascam, however, warns you of this.
Dave M.

[J.R. Hudson]

John, I'm confused why as a mod you would jump into this discussing with such a polarizing statement. Premiere is a proven NLE and it's evident that many people here have used it successfully. This forum discourages debates on "which cameras is the best," so why not have the same policy for NLE?


That was a joke Jade. Try and not take things too seriously when it comes to discussing an NLE. But I do apologize if I offended you :beer:

Some people like Premiere, some like FCP and the rest of the all knowing like Vegas.


See, that was another joke ! :cheesy:

-

But really, no matter what your preference is, Vegas seems to be designed by people who actually edit.

[Kdawg]

Thanks for the info John. I am going to see what vegas is all about. I am old and decrepit, but I dont mind learning something new. Especially if it aint as panzy as premier has been to me lately...

[J.R. Hudson]

heh heh

He said panzy

[J.R. Hudson]

It's funny

Dave showed me some FCP and Vegas comparisons the other day (Yes, Dave has an IMac and FCP in his house) and something as simple as splitting a clip and creating a transition in FCP seemed to be like jumping over fences whereas Vegas was like Hit S, Click and Drag = Done

That's all I want. I just want simple and efficient.

-

I have found all of Adobes products to be simply not making sense. I use Photoshop (who does not?) and am atleast intermediate but to this day am constantly saying 'What the hell ... that's lame'

[cecil995]

The only advantage to running something like fcp, premiere, or avid ( which I find to have a much larger learning curve than the others) is that you have a better chance of getting a job in a post house, cause I see very little postings out there listing vegas experience. I'm not discrediting vegas at all, I have never used it but a friend of mine has had sucess with it, just that it has not made its way into the professional world yet.

But.....if you are just doing your own thing, then use what you are most comfortable with. They all basically do the same thing.

[Capt Quirk]

The only advantage to running something like fcp, premiere, or avid ( which I find to have a much larger learning curve than the others) is that you have a better chance of getting a job in a post house, cause I see very little postings out there listing vegas experience.
I have yet to see a serious position that required Premiere. Avid and FCP, yes. Shake, Smoke and Combustion too.

[cecil995]

I have yet to see a serious position that required Premiere. Avid and FCP, yes. Shake, Smoke and Combustion too.


There are some out there. Really, AE and Photoshop are really the most popular adobe softwares used out there.

[c.g._eads]

Giving people an update here. One of the reasons I hated Premiere was that it wouldn't capture video from any camcorder I set it up with. I always had to use another program. People "in the know" discredited me as an imbocile and said I was having hardware issues. Hmm, well, first time I ever tried capturing with Vegas (HD footage mind you), it just recognized my camera right away and started capturing. Imagine that.

I sat there in shock because I was waiting for someone to jump around the corner and go "just kidding" and my computer would crash. But it just worked. Amazing.

[rsbush]

You do know that different softwares have different hardware requirements, right?

[c.g._eads]

yes. which means vegas requires much less from your system. something I believe people should know.

[rsbush]

I agree that Vegas is the least picky NLE and the most intuitive. I don't particularly like the interface and the way it forces you to work but that's just personal preference. It's a great program. I'm glad it's working for you.

[Huy Vu]

yes. which means vegas requires much less from your system. something I believe people should know.

It doesn't mean that at all. What it does mean is that your current system configuration happens to be in the acceptable range for Vegas. There's all sorts of factor that can screw with your programs, and it's not always a question of better or worst hardware. I've had softwares before that'll refused to work unless I change the RAM brand. Older versions of Premiere can sometimes stop working when you have certain codecs installed.

The only conclusion you can draw is that your computer is incompatible with Premiere; it's possible there's a piece of hardware that doesn't play nice or some software that's screwing with it. If you post your system specs I'm willing to bet that someone on here (possibly even me) is running a worse rig yet have Premiere working just fine.

Heck, the first time I ran PP 2.0 was on a 2.4 Ghz single core computer with 1.5 GB of RAM and I could still edit HDV.

[c.g._eads]

We'll call it a nice coincidence then. With premiere, the coincidences always seemed to work against me rather than for me. Coincidence? I'm not sure. But I'll take it.

[saturnin]

take it baby take it and run wif it... heh

surprised this lame topic is still going

[c.g._eads]

in the issue of fairness, I will continue to post both the good and the bad of Vegas. I have just run into my first problem. After importing all of my footage, all of it plays very stuttery. I'm not sure whether this is a simple preference I am overlooking, or something more final. Either way, I am still not able to edit my footage. Going on over 20 days now.

[Huy Vu]

It's probably the pulldown that weren't removed.

But I agree with saturnin that this thread is played out. Chris, I think you should start a new thread in the Vegas section of the forum with a less negative title to discuss your technical issue.

[J.R. Hudson]

I agree that Vegas is the least picky NLE and the most intuitive. I don't particularly like the interface and the way it forces you to work but that's just personal preference. It's a great program. I'm glad it's working for you.

That's another great thing about Vegas

The entire interface can be customized to your demands

[Neil Rowe]

It's probably the pulldown that weren't removed.

But I agree with saturnin that this thread is played out. Chris, I think you should start a new thread in the Vegas section of the forum with a less negative title to discuss your technical issue.


..i would agree with both statements here. i was going to let this live here a little longer out of sheer grace, and then just move it to the vegas forum where it should be. but i concluded that ive already done the first part. so as youve noticed, it has been moved. its much better suited to a place where people can help you with your current app then here where its not really doing anything for anyone who uses your old app. for any PPRO users who want to follow it, they will know where to find it.

[Ronbo]

I am a Premiere user considering Vegas. I have bought three Sony VAIOs and all came with Premiere. Why? I was looking at a new VAIO yesterday and I was sure that is would come with some version of Vegas right. No, it comes with Premiere. For a company like Sony to have Premiere installed instead of their own software just doesn’t make sense. That was just FYI.

I want to know how Vegas handles HDV footage. Does it use cineform as a intermediary? If so is it realtime or do you have to render?

[filmguy123]

I used Premiere consistently for a year on a number of projects and never had any major problems to speak of. Version 2.0 on WinXP w/SP2. I had long projects, short projects, effects intensive projects, etc. and Premiere was always an excellent solution for me.

I recently switched to Mac & FCP. Final Cut is an incredible NLE and superior to Premiere in many ways, and that is the NLE I will be sticking with. There are just a few features and interface issues that I prefer in Premiere over FCP, which says a lot for those items in Premiere (most notable is the time rate stretch tool... can't believe FCP doesn't have this! There are plenty of other ways to do the same thing in FCP, but the time rate stretch is very convenient).


I've heard lots of great stuff about Vegas but it has always been my impression that Vegas users are more production people than post production people... the type that edit because they need to. As someone whose favorite part of the process is editing, I couldn't ever work on Vegas as I need the incredible power and flexibility that FCP offers... even Premiere has that over Vegas....

In my un-official opinion, a ROUGH rating would go something like this I think:

iMovie = Very Consumer-ish
Vegas = Consumer-level
Premiere = Prosumer
FCP = Professional
Avid = Very Professional... but a pain in the butt and too expensive IMO

[Krummi]

What is this "power" FCP and Premiere have over Vegas?...

[David Jimerson]

It always makes me laugh when someone who's never used Vegas calls it "consumer-level."

filmguy, if you don't think Vegas is "flexible" or "powerful," you've never spent more than five minutes on it. The audio and compositing tools alone leave every other NLE coughing in the dust, and I say that without equivocation or exaggeration.

[J.R. Hudson]

Too true Dave

I wonder what people are forming their opinions when bemoaning Vegas ? Edit one short project with it and it becomes a revelation (It did for me)

-

Jade ? A negative title about an NLE ? It's just software, not a personal attack on anyone :P

-

[Daygola814]

It always makes me laugh when someone who's never used Vegas calls it "consumer-level."

filmguy, if you don't think Vegas is "flexible" or "powerful," you've never spent more than five minutes on it. The audio and compositing tools alone leave every other NLE coughing in the dust, and I say that without equivocation or exaggeration.

Not to mention that FCP JUST added the "Open Timeline" but Vegas has had that since, what, Version 4?

I, at first, thought Vegas was "consumerish," but that was mainly because of the interface. When I first started using Vegas, the thing that really creeped me out was the amount of power and intuitiveness that Vegas offered. One thing that comes to mind is the video crossfades without having to apply them. At first, I didn't like that because I was so used to Premiere, but now, I HATE having to apply crossfades. It's counter-intuitive, but I didn't even realize it at the time. And if a video editing app is making other applications seem counter-intuitive, well... I'd hardly call that "consumerish."

I mean... not knocking Premiere, but After Effects has the ability to change the timeline settings in the middle of a project... why doesn't Premiere have this option? Vegas does. FCP just added it.

If I'm not mistaken, you can't apply Beziere Masks to your footage in any other editing app. You have to go out to another app, like AE. Or the audio capabilities... Soundtrack Pro is the program you have to go out to and then the audio controls seem great. Vegas already gives you that in the timeline. I was watching the demo for Soundtrack Pro and they were showing that you don't have to apply crossfades, you just push the audio tracks together and it auto-crossfades. Then they showed that you can pick what type of crossfades/fades to apply. While that video was playing, the narrator was saying something about "Professional, Intuitive controls." Well, since Vegas already offers that in the timeline, the exact same feature, then it too has "intuitive controls," but in the same app, not in a different one.

I'm not bashing any other app, I'm just giving my opinion. Vegas has it's flaws too. Before 8, the titling stuff was pretty much useless... If you forget to add someone's name in the middle of the scrolling credits, you have to erase everything from the bottom all the way up to the position you want to place the credit. Things like that... Plus the fact that it's moving toward supporting "Sony only" products, etc... That's a BIG mistake in my opinion.

PS - I still love Premiere, it has things that Vegas doesn't... like the ability to speed up your footage beyond 1200%.... but there are workarounds in Vegas for that.

[filmguy123]

I think Vegas is a great program, don't mistake what I am saying. When I am referring to professional VS consumer, I don't mean the interface or intuitiveness.... it has to do with the flexibility and power beyond just editing, but input/output as well. There is a reason why post houses don't use Vegas. The format and hardware support offered in FCP is very professional level, and Vegas can't match this.

When I say Vegas is on more of a consumer level, I mean that it does everything most consumers want it to do - and very well - BUT, not everything professional users want and need it to do. Vegas users, how many of you work on large projects between a team and share assests, exchange EDLs, output to film, etc. using Vegas?

I think some of the features Vegas offers are great. Masks & audio crossfades on the timeline, for example, without opening a seperate app. That's nice and convenient. But that is exactly what I mean - most professionals will WANT to open a seperate app anyway. If I am doing compositing, I want a fully featured app for that kind of work, not something I can do in the timeline. Same with audio - when I move to audio-phase, I will be doing a lot of exacting audio work and want that in a seperate app. That's not to say it's not convenient to have that in Vegas, but when I refer to professional VS consumer I'm not talking about convenience, I am talking about overall power.

When I think of Final Cut Pro, I don't think of "Final Cut Pro the NLE componenent" I think of "Final Cut Studio" - the whole suite is really just one big app, it ships together and doesn't seperate.... and it is broken up into different components that blend perfectly. In that sense, Final Cut Pro IS Soundtrack Pro, Color, Motion, etc. It's just the power each of these apps offers warrants having it's own app, and each app is so tightly integrated I might as well be opening another window within FCP.

Saying Vegas is on a consumer level vs FCP being on a Pro level isn't an indication of the quality and intuitiveness of it as an editor, but it's overall ability to meet the needs of professionals. That said, I *personally* also prefer the interface and work-flow that Premiere, and more so, FCP offers.

[Daygola814]

Very valid points. I understand exactly what you're talking about when you say you want an app that is for one specific task. Personally, I wish Vegas integrated with AE (obviously that will never happen) because I think AE's tools for Visual FX and Motion Graphics are much better. In a way, FC Studio is like one big app... you're right. It really is just a matter of preference. Honestly, I've handled three feature films in Vegas with ease. Any Visual FX, I just rendered out to Uncompressed to AE or simply did them in Vegas. Honestly, I'm actually looking into switching to Final Cut eventually just because that's where all the jobs are. Plus, Vegas is being geared toward SONY products and that's annoying.

But as of right now, handling my features in Sony Vegas is the way to go for me. As soon as I have the money, I'll probably switch to FC Studio. They're all good edting applications. It's kinda pointless to argue over what's better. I just like how Vegas has almost everything in one app.

Bottom line is... use what works for you. If the app you're using isn't cutting it for you, then switch to something you think will be best for you.

[David Jimerson]

You can do all that with Vegas and another $800 worth of software, too . . . if you want to compare software "suites." Vegas can be an integrated "component," too.

But 90% of the time, it's not necessary; the tools are already there.

Yes, many professionals "prefer" to open a separate app, yadda, yadda, because they've always done it that way. And sometimes, the extra 10% of functionality is needed. But that doesn't make it always the right way, or most efficient way, or the best way, of doing something. Only the traditional way -- and Vegas does befuddle people who are used to doing things the "old" way, the way of NLEs which were designed to copy the really old ways of doing things . . . because that's how professionals were used to working.

I dunno . . . if you prefer that, then that's your preference, and God bless ya -- but it really sounds to me like the elderly legal secretary who once told me that doing footnotes on a manual typewriter is more "professional" and really "not that bad," and that using Word to do it keeps you from having complete control over the margins, page breaks, etc. . . .

(And with what hardware and formats is Vegas lagging far behind? Vegas's timeline is, and always has been, far more "flexible" then FCP's. Even now, with the supposed "open timeline," FCP still doesn't play different formats in their native format -- it does an on-the-fly conversion to the timeline format which is dependent on your machine's horsepower, whereas Vegas just handles it natively.)

So, use whatever you want to use, whatever works for you, and if that's FCS, then good for you . . . but dude, seriously, if you're going to make sweeping statements about the usefulness of a different system, at least try to make yourself conversant with it before you do. Otherwise, you're just trolling.

[David Jimerson]

Or, think of it this way . . .

Is a Mac a "professional" tool? Does it have the hardware compatibility of a Windows machine? The software compatibility? Which computer do more (many, many, many, many more) "professionals" use? And if more professionals use Windows (which they do), then where OS X departs from Windows, isn't that less professional?

What of its major selling (or at least marketing) points? Ease of use? Not complicated? The iLife suite, with its ability to do "life stuff," like organizing photos, videos, and music? The tight integration with iTunes and iPods? Isn't that all . . . pretty dang consumerish? And that's the stuff it's supposed to be good for, where PCs are just stodgy boring work machines?

So . . . are Macs just consumer machines? Fit for soccer moms and your kid sister, but brushed aside when you want to do some real work?

[Jared Meyer]

Who cares, really? There's no accounting for taste. Sony Vegas is the first NLE I tried out when I was starting out five years ago. I hated it. The interface, the layout, the controls, the media manager, everything. I tested Final Cut Pro for a while and it clicked right away. I've been using it ever since.

But I wouldn't dream of saying one is better than the other. I use FCP because it feels right to me. I like it and that's all that matters. Are there areas where Vegas does better? I don't doubt it. And the opposite holds true as well.

Each package has pros and cons so why is it that there has to be an ultimate victor? Every current pro NLE option is perfectly capable of delivering fantastic results, so the rest boils down to personal preference. Which is stupid to argue about.

[David Jimerson]

I tend to agree.

[J.R. Hudson]

I think Vegas is a great program, don't mistake what I am saying. When I am referring to professional VS consumer, I don't mean the interface or intuitiveness.... it has to do with the flexibility and power beyond just editing, but input/output as well. There is a reason why post houses don't use Vegas. The format and hardware support offered in FCP is very professional level, and Vegas can't match this.

When I say Vegas is on more of a consumer level, I mean that it does everything most consumers want it to do - and very well - BUT, not everything professional users want and need it to do. Vegas users, how many of you work on large projects between a team and share assests, exchange EDLs, output to film, etc. using Vegas?

I think some of the features Vegas offers are great. Masks & audio crossfades on the timeline, for example, without opening a seperate app. That's nice and convenient. But that is exactly what I mean - most professionals will WANT to open a seperate app anyway. If I am doing compositing, I want a fully featured app for that kind of work, not something I can do in the timeline. Same with audio - when I move to audio-phase, I will be doing a lot of exacting audio work and want that in a seperate app. That's not to say it's not convenient to have that in Vegas, but when I refer to professional VS consumer I'm not talking about convenience, I am talking about overall power.

When I think of Final Cut Pro, I don't think of "Final Cut Pro the NLE componenent" I think of "Final Cut Studio" - the whole suite is really just one big app, it ships together and doesn't seperate.... and it is broken up into different components that blend perfectly. In that sense, Final Cut Pro IS Soundtrack Pro, Color, Motion, etc. It's just the power each of these apps offers warrants having it's own app, and each app is so tightly integrated I might as well be opening another window within FCP.

Saying Vegas is on a consumer level vs FCP being on a Pro level isn't an indication of the quality and intuitiveness of it as an editor, but it's overall ability to meet the needs of professionals. That said, I *personally* also prefer the interface and work-flow that Premiere, and more so, FCP offers.

Another mistatement through and through.

It's like going in circles. Vegas is as powerful and flexible (and in some instances even moreso) than FCP.

Period. What make or break option does one have over the other ? I suppose that depends on its importance to you.

It's a matter of preference. FCP has a hold merely on the Apple block. I wonder if Vegas and FCP were cross platformed and not hindered by Mac Clones or PC Users limitation on variety ?

It seems Mac users speak of FCP based it being the only logical NLE for their OS needs.

[Daygola814]

Yes! David, that's EXACTLY what I was trying to say about Vegas. :laugh: People are so used to the traditional way of working that when someone comes along with something revolutionary, people don't want to adjust because it's foreign to them. It's like the digital vs film debate.

If I can do all of the stuff I need to in one app, why shouldn't I? I mean, the reason I'm using Vegas is this... I can do everything I need to (at this moment in time) in it, from sound mixing and sound design, to some visual fx, FAST editing, color grading, etc... for advanced color grading I'll go into AE.

It's just a different way of looking at things. For me, it's better than the traditional way.

[jeditdv]

Before 8, the titling stuff was pretty much useless... If you forget to add someone's name in the middle of the scrolling credits, you have to erase everything from the bottom all the way up to the position you want to place the credit. Things like that...

That is NOT true. To insert a name, you just click on the block the the left of where you wanted the name added, press "Insert", and a new blank line is INSERTED. Then you type in the new name without affecting ANY of the names below it.

There are a LOT of misconceptions about the credit roll tool. Could it be better? Certainly. But it's not really as bad as everyone makes it out to be. I have an entire newsletter article written on it in Vol 2 #9 of my newsletters (http://www.jetdv.com).

[David Jimerson]

I never used the scroll, anyway. I always create a card and then move it with keyframes.

[jeditdv]

David, while I agree with you and virtually never use the credit roll, there are still a LOT of misconceptions about that tool and what it can and can't do. Inserting and deleting rows is one of them.

[David Jimerson]

Oh, I totally agree. I've never found it as onerous as a lot people tend to think it is. It, like much of the rest of Vegas, simply approaches titling from a different perspective as traditional titlers. It's there to get the text on the screen -- and then everything else you'd normally do in the titler, you do with all the other tools of Vegas.

Is this the best way of doing it? Debatable. But it's very little-understood that it's the way you're supposed to work with it.

[Bhasky]

Vagas is way to Go!!!!!!! friendliest Professional NLE! superb software on the Earth!

[michael morano]

Alright so which is it, I respect all of you and the ups and downs of Premier, Avid and Vegas. I just would like to know, "What's the best one to go with?" Sorry I benifit from your frustrations.

[Barry_Green]

As in all such questions, there is no one "best" one. There is only the "best one for you", and every individual's circumstances are different.

[Anhar Miah]

You started with:



When I say Vegas is on more of a consumer level, I mean that it does everything most consumers want it to do - and very well - BUT, not everything professional users want and need it to do.

Fair so far, lets see



how many of you work on large projects between a team and share assests

So are you saying that you can not install multiple copies of Vegas on a LAN network and not be able to share media assets?




exchange EDLs

Vegas does export CMX Format EDL (Since Version 5, perhaps even Version 4):

its under:

Tools>Scripting




output to film

I assume again a question of EDL export (which has already been clarified).

Anhar,

[Rich834]

I'm a photography hobbyist. I started with SceenBlaster when Sony just took it over (2002?) and then I bought a used Sony Vegas 4, upgraded a few times and here I am Sony Vegas 7. I did not upgrade to 8. I've run Vegas on four different machines and can honestly say it never locked up or crashed. It did fail to boot one time, but I was running several applications, I re-booted and all was good. I tried several NLE's and DVD authoring programs (That use to be separate issues). We had Premiere on two systems at a facility I worked at, but never really used it. At that time, Adobe Premiere was just too expensive for me to buy for my hobby. I do not find all aspects of Vegas to be intuitive, and the provided manual is inadequate, so I bought some books. There were other NLE's which I would have liked to have used which were less expensive but I always seemed to have problems with (crashing, locking up etc). As long as Vegas remains as reliable for me as it has been for 5+ years, I will stay with it...



Rich

[metro2307]

Vagas is way to Go!!!!!!! friendliest Professional NLE! superb software on the Earth!


Thanks, Yoda.

[JonB]

I'm going to also agree that Vegas seems to be the simplest, easiest, and most intuitive NLE. But, it doesn't quite have all the capabilities that some of the other NLE's have. But I find if you couple it with something like Adobe After Effects, all of your editing needs are taken care of. I find I can edit faster in Vegas than any other program. Not to mention, Vegas is great for lining up audio in too. Such big tracks makes everything so easy to see :)

[SeanEmer]

I find I can edit faster in Vegas than any other program.


Sounds a lot like what almost any editor will say about the program they learned first :)

Everything is relative. If you're stuck up picking which program to use you're missing the point entirely.

Get something. Vegas, Premiere, Avid, FCP, or even Edius. Then use it, and make your work. If it doesn't work out, find something else.

No amount of discussion will EVER settle or give much perspective beyond which programs are industry standard.


This thread should have died a long long time ago (and it did, too! :beer:)