MUSIC VIDEO for GEFFEN RECORDS - "Love is Wicked"

[Tim Naylor]

www.sampsonandnaylor.com
It's the thumbnail, top row / center.
Shot in Kingston Jamaica and did some pick ups in Far Rockaway Queens (can you guess which shots).

Background:
We got a call on a Thursday, flew out to Kingston Ja on a Wed (on an expired passport, that's another story), scouted, cast and prepped Wed/Thurs, and shot on a Friday. Budget was tiny (25k and that included airfares, hotel, post, etc). Cashed in many a favor card. Label loves it. Considering they spent 300k and 150k on previous vids that didn't get much love, we're happy with the results.

It was an HVX 200 and steadicam Merlin show. Small HMI, Kino and tungsten package.

Just reached top 50 of most played new vids on youtube.

When our production company, Uncle, in LA saw the offline link, they couldn't believe it was HD and thought it was already onlined. A big up to the little camera that can.

Will post bigger better onlined file soon.

[ifownlee41nite@mac.com]

www.sampsonandnaylor.com

It was an HVX 200 and steadicam Merlin show. Small HMI, Kino and tungsten package.



I loved it. Can you be more specific on lighting and give a breakdown. I love the look of the lighting set ups.

How much of the rays coming in from outside to the inside were real, or did you create the effect.

Really curious.

Thanks

[cinebuddy]

Hot. Brick and Lace are sexier than a muhf^&$^%

[Justyn]

Very pro piece. Did you shoot multiple HVXs? and how did you handle the synch and playback?


I'd say you passed the audition and time to get 250k next time and quite a nice piece to land that with now.

cheers

[SignalPix]

www.sampsonandnaylor.com
It's the thumbnail, top row / center.
Shot in Kingston Jamaica and did some pick ups in Far Rockaway Queens (can you guess which shots).

Background:
We got a call on a Thursday, flew out to Kingston Ja on a Wed (on an expired passport, that's another story), scouted, cast and prepped Wed/Thurs, and shot on a Friday. Budget was tiny (25k and that included airfares, hotel, post, etc). Cashed in many a favor card. Label loves it. Considering they spent 300k and 150k on previous vids that didn't get much love, we're happy with the results.

It was an HVX 200 and steadicam Merlin show. Small HMI, Kino and tungsten package.

Just reached top 50 of most played new vids on youtube.

When our production company, Uncle, in LA saw the offline link, they couldn't believe it was HD and thought it was already onlined. A big up to the little camera that can.

Will post bigger better onlined file soon.

Thanks for sharing this, Tim. I've always wondered: how do producers, like yourself, go about getting music video gigs? What advice would you give to others who would like to go down that path? Start building a reel of spec music videos and hope you get noticed?

[MotionFx]

damn! nicely done. Cant wait to do another myself.
Brian

[Patryk_Rebisz]

haha... shot a number of those videos where the pervious video were a few times as expensive as the one we made and didn't even look half-as good as ours. At first i thought it makes me THA' MAN but then i realised that it's just makes me look like an idion with no business skills... Great work though.

[JimiK]

Hey Tim very nice video,professional and all.
I also took a look at the other ones and one of them caught my eye.That's the look I am going for.I would like to hear what kinda camera and settings for the exterior shots.
First one middle row.The guy in suit running and the ladies walking.
Any info would be helpful.
Thanks and good day.

[kevinM]

Looks really great! Nice job with the Merlin shots too.

Man, $25K including expenses? You almost gave it away. My personal opinion here, and take it for what it is, but be carefull about being so eager to do a job that you take what they offer and bust your own butt and everyone elses to make it happen.

You have a good level of skill, it is worth a centain price. If you give it away, it will be harder to get what you really derserve the next time, and you can bet they'll be offering less NOT MORE next time.

Best,
Kevin

[tmnt]

That's was awesome, really great.

[Tim Naylor]

Looks really great! Nice job with the Merlin shots too.

Man, $25K including expenses? You almost gave it away. My personal opinion here, and take it for what it is, but be carefull about being so eager to do a job that you take what they offer and bust your own butt and everyone elses to make it happen.

You have a good level of skill, it is worth a centain price. If you give it away, it will be harder to get what you really derserve the next time, and you can bet they'll be offering less NOT MORE next time.

Best,
Kevin
I hear you Kevin. We usually do budgets much higher than that. It was one of those situations where the money was out of management's pocket, the label pretty much had nothing left for them. They felt they needed a video that really shows they're from Jamaica (the other one's gave you no clue). They hunted us down as we have a bit of experience shooting in Kingston. We also felt it was imperative to start a good relationship with Geffen as they're cranking out the hits these days. It worked out. We're getting requests for bids at better budgets. It's one of those situations where we felt we had to take a few gambles and sacrifices for work down the road. It's paying off.

Eitherway, one has to be careful not to get the rep for making a dollar out of fifteen cents or you find yourself making fifteen cents. Oddly enough though, we did manage to keep our fees and make something.

[Tim Naylor]

Hey Tim very nice video,professional and all.
I also took a look at the other ones and one of them caught my eye.That's the look I am going for.I would like to hear what kinda camera and settings for the exterior shots.
First one middle row.The guy in suit running and the ladies walking.
Any info would be helpful.
Thanks and good day.
That video was for Universal Artist, Tami Chynn. Shot in NYC, Shadow Studios and Soho/Chinatown. Varicam w/ Cine style Canon Zoom. Steadicam. Fun shoot. One of our first videos. Lighting package was tungsten 5k, 2ks on down - nothing wierd. Sitting in the chair was 5k through bleached muslin. Colors were mostly dialed in on set through white balancing through Lee Swatch book. Small amount of AFX for "nightmare" sequence. Tanisha Scott was the choreographer.

Tami is also on the top row/left video. Great people.

[Tim Naylor]

I loved it. Can you be more specific on lighting and give a breakdown. I love the look of the lighting set ups.

How much of the rays coming in from outside to the inside were real, or did you create the effect.

Really curious.

Thanks
Exterior was just bounce boards. On the steps, we waited for the Sun to begin to set and be low. Their faces worked best with front light, so we scheduled for that as well. Silhouettes of dancers against sun were late in the day. Single dancer in day/int with rays of sunlight was all natural light and a reflector. That and the silhouettes were shot in Far Rockaway queens, near the beach. Rest in Jamaica. Int with white dress was keyed with 1.2k hmi an filled with a 1.2k hmi through silk. Night Int with smoking oil drums was filled by string of bare bulbs on dimmer and kino by camera. Backlights were 1ks and tweenies. Genny 6500 watt putt putt. Singles on blond sitting on oil drum had an inky up high from camera just on her.

Monitoring was mostly on BTH 1700. Waveform was indispensable. Pick ups in queens and drive bys - no monitor.

Coloring was mostly done with white balance. Day WB through 1/2 CTB. Night WB through 1/2 CTO and 1/2 minus Green. Then we fine tuned it on a Avid DS. Beauty work and silhouettes were refined in Flame.

I find HVX 200 really sucks to color correct in DVC HD. Noisy codec. We upconverted via Kona to D5 720p/59.94 uncompressed 8 bit. Then fed it to the DS and Flame.

Camera settins
Cine V
Cine Matrix
-3 Pedestal
+3 Detail Coring
720 24pn

[Tim Naylor]

Thanks for sharing this, Tim. I've always wondered: how do producers, like yourself, go about getting music video gigs? What advice would you give to others who would like to go down that path? Start building a reel of spec music videos and hope you get noticed?
Spec videos our good. Labels have a whole bush league of new artists in which they need low budget videos made. Approach management. Get them to see your reel. Get your reel online. Very rare people ask us for DVD's. Make sure your links are encoded right. They won't sit though long down loads.

Ask if you can write a treatment on songs. They won't have you write for 100k plus videos out the gate, so learn how to write for budget. Learn to write good treatments or get a treatment writer. Build a library of photo references. They expect them with treatments. Check out Video Static to learn who the production company's are and who comissions what.

Good luck.

[Tim Naylor]

I feel your pain. We hate that aspect. Recently we've been signed to a rep who's much better at going hardball with a label than we are. Often getting the job is the easier part, it's the record business waters that can be a bitch. I come from shooting features and most recently got into to directing and shooting videos. I can tell you, features are much more straight forward than dealing with the Music Biz.

[TimurCivan]

Beautiful work man. Looks great, i take it you solved the output problem?

[Cale Glendening]

You said you work for UNCLE?
That is cool, I did some freelance for them last year. Nice people I worked with.
Video looks great btw.

[senne]

Man, $25K including expenses? You almost gave it away.

I have no experience, but i wonder... what justifies $ 25k ? I think it's a lot of money.
The clip looks pro, but there are no fancy studios that have to be decorated or any other constructions that have to be built. Nor did you have to close down a street, etc So it is only the gear, the travelling and the hours of work.
I 've seen people on here do stuff on a 1000$ budget or less, which also looked pro.

I know it's big buisiness and companies are willing to pay a lot of money for a good video. But I just wonder how you can say that 25k is giving it away. Because in my opinion you still keep at least 17k for two weeks of work.

Please correct me if I am seriously wrong, for i have no experience at all.

[TimurCivan]

post production is Very expensive, theres travel, food, crew, lodgings, equitpment rentals, permits, etc... 25K is not alot of money.

[Look 1st]

Looks good Tim, CANT WAIT to see the finished product.

Was the Smirnorf "Ice Breaka" video thats on that site shot with the HVX too? (it looks like HVX footage :)

Take care man and good luck with your endeavors!!!

[Tim Naylor]

I have no experience, but i wonder... what justifies $ 25k ? I think it's a lot of money.
The clip looks pro, but there are no fancy studios that have to be decorated or any other constructions that have to be built. Nor did you have to close down a street, etc So it is only the gear, the travelling and the hours of work.
I 've seen people on here do stuff on a 1000$ budget or less, which also looked pro.

I know it's big buisiness and companies are willing to pay a lot of money for a good video. But I just wonder how you can say that 25k is giving it away. Because in my opinion you still keep at least 17k for two weeks of work.

Please correct me if I am seriously wrong, for i have no experience at all.
This is a commercial project, for promoting a song for a large record company, to sell records. Meaning, there's no way I can ask anyone to work on it for free. Granted we asked favors, because if this were budgeted at full rates, it would be three times the budget. ie) Hair stylist usually works for 1500/day. Choreographer at 3k / day. Makeup 1500/day. We go them for ..... anyway, here are some of the costs that may not be apparent to the unitiated:
- Director, DP, Hair, Lead Dancer, Choreographer, Stylist, Fees, airline tickets/hotel
- Customs broker, import duties and work permits
- Wardrobe
- Producer, Location Manager's Fees
- Crew Fees: 3 grips and 3 electrics, AC, PA's, AD, Drivers
- Location Fee/Permits (with Kingston's "informal" government)
- Protection money:We're not in Kansas....
- Dancers/Extras
- Meals for a 30 plus crew.
- Main location was covered with trash and goat shit - someone had to clean it
- Casting Director, on short notice you need someone to get you bodies fast
- Camera and Lighting Gear
- Art Director: Those barrels of fire didn't come with the location, string lights, etc
- Crowd Control: Outside of frame are hundreds of people that need to kept out of frame.
- Post Production: A good editor isn't cheap. Beauty work (clearing up bad skin) is a painstaking process. Color correction on DS isn't cheap. In short, if it goes to broadcast, DVC PRO HD color correction in FCP doesn't cut it. Too noisy.

Anyway, I hope this gives you an idea that we did almost "give it away". You can only do favors so many times until you run out of favors to ask and have to pay bills. Also, keep in mind, when you do something like our video, you're contractually obligated to deliver the specs on your treatment. The deadline's are tight. Miss a deadline, you can be in breach. Money pushes work through and gets things done on time. Unlike a personal or non-professional project where the deadlines are vague, you can hunt around, and wait for someone to do something for free. This was not the case.


On my site there's a spec for Epinion shot on 35mm, art direction, makeup, etc. It cost me 5 grand. Looks more "pro" than most everything on my reel. Everything but the stock, processing, transfer and edit were donated to me as a favor to push my career. My "real world" budget assessed it at about 100k and that's a conservative estimate. My thesis in grad school ran 15k. If I paid people it would've run 50k. Can't pull this off again. Favors are rarely for free.

[TimurCivan]

Truth.


"Informal Government" haha.....

[Tim Naylor]

Looks good Tim, CANT WAIT to see the finished product.

Was the Smirnorf "Ice Breaka" video thats on that site shot with the HVX too? (it looks like HVX footage :)

Take care man and good luck with your endeavors!!!
Icebreaka. DVX 100a.

[Brandon Rice]

This is a commercial project, for promoting a song for a large record company, to sell records. Meaning, there's no way I can ask anyone to work on it for free. Granted we asked favors, because if this were budgeted at full rates, it would be three times the budget. ie) Hair stylist usually works for 1500/day. Choreographer at 3k / day. Makeup 1500/day. We go them for ..... anyway, here are some of the costs that may not be apparent to the unitiated:
- Director, DP, Hair, Lead Dancer, Choreographer, Stylist, Fees, airline tickets/hotel
- Customs broker, import duties and work permits
- Wardrobe
- Producer, Location Manager's Fees
- Crew Fees: 3 grips and 3 electrics, AC, PA's, AD, Drivers
- Location Fee/Permits (with Kingston's "informal" government)
- Protection money:We're not in Kansas....
- Dancers/Extras
- Meals for a 30 plus crew.
- Main location was covered with trash and goat shi* - someone had to clean it
- Casting Director, on short notice you need someone to get you bodies fast
- Camera and Lighting Gear
- Art Director: Those barrels of fire didn't come with the location, string lights, etc
- Crowd Control: Outside of frame are hundreds of people that need to kept out of frame.
- Post Production: A good editor isn't cheap. Beauty work (clearing up bad skin) is a painstaking process. Color correction on DS isn't cheap. In short, if it goes to broadcast, DVC PRO HD color correction in FCP doesn't cut it. Too noisy.

Anyway, I hope this gives you an idea that we did almost "give it away". You can only do favors so many times until you run out of favors to ask and have to pay bills. Also, keep in mind, when you do something like our video, you're contractually obligated to deliver the specs on your treatment. The deadline's are tight. Miss a deadline, you can be in breach. Money pushes work through and gets things done on time. Unlike a personal or non-professional project where the deadlines are vague, you can hunt around, and wait for someone to do something for free. This was not the case.


On my site there's a spec for Epinion shot on 35mm, art direction, makeup, etc. It cost me 5 grand. Looks more "pro" than most everything on my reel. Everything but the stock, processing, transfer and edit were donated to me as a favor to push my career. My "real world" budget assessed it at about 100k and that's a conservative estimate. My thesis in grad school ran 15k. If I paid people it would've run 50k. Can't pull this off again. Favors are rarely for free.

You did NOT need all the above stuff to pull this off....

Lot's of wasted crew here.

Ask Geoff Reisner to show ya a music video he just did... low budget, and that's a VIDEO... this one was just a bunch of women dancing... and singing... nothing special.. Yes, the image was good, but that's pretty simple with an HVX in outdoor light.

[FREUDENBERG_FILMS]

Well best ever music video done with the HVX to date that ive seen one these forums....
I really liked the ending with her dancing infron of that great cloud formation with the sun behind it.

Seeing this clip makes me want to go out and shot on my HVX camera again... dam you!

Good suff and thanks for shareing.

[TimurCivan]

Lot's of wasted crew here.

No not quite brandon. Doing things the right way costs money, especially in the corporate professional world.

[Brandon Rice]

No not quite brandon. Doing things the right way costs money, especially in the corporate professional world.

Then don't do them in the corporate world... professional, yes. Corporate, no.

Precisely the reason I was so pissed off when I was on the set of CSI... so many dang unnecessary crew members! :furious3:

[Matty_g]

Sounds like they were under a time crunch too.
It's better to pay someone who you know will give you results
than waste time that you don't have.

[TimurCivan]

Well, brandon, Geffen Records corp, is where the work comes from, Tim doesnt make the music videos for fun, They want a paper trail, and they want it done yesterday, like he said, inorder to get immediate action, you have to pay everyone. A good makeup artist/Grip/DP/Producer etc... Have expensive dayrates.

Im sorry man, but i kinda think its silly to tell people they are uneccesary when clearly they are needed by the people shooting the video. And also, i think its kinda hard to say, oh hey you cant make a living because youre position is uneccesary.

[Brandon Rice]

Fair enough... different strokes for different folks

[g0ldenb0y55]

Well best ever music video done with the HVX to date that ive seen one these forums....
I really liked the ending with her dancing infron of that great cloud formation with the sun behind it.

Seeing this clip makes me want to go out and shot on my HVX camera again... dam you!

Good suff and thanks for shareing.

IMO this is the best I've seen. It was posted a few weeks ago.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=103142

[Brandon Rice]

Was Tim the producer on this shoot?

[Tim Naylor]

I was one of the producers. As you stated, "You did NOT need all the above stuff to pull this off....Lot's of wasted crew here", I can presume you have supernatural insights such as: we have two days to put a show together in the 3rd most dangerous city in the world in it's most dangerous garrison. It's murder rate is currently 30 times that of Brooklyn. You have fourteen hours to cover three locations. After which you have less than a week to deliver an online. You also have to pay people.

So enlighten me, who or what on my list would you get rid of ? Which one of my "wasted crew" were scratchin their asses when work had to be done. You comments imply, I'm a wasteful producer, so I need to know. Who do we lose?

Would you save by replacing our armed driver for an unarmed regular? Hell, lose the driver and the locations manager. If I put my hat to the back, I can stroll the streets of Kingston and find my own locations. No one will touch an American, and everyone wants to help a filmmaker. Now what deal would you get with custom afer losing the customs broker? How much would you budget for police checkpoint bribes? How'd you negotiate our "ghetto pass" with the local Don? He's a charming fella and I'm sure he'll give a foreigner (at least a filmmaker) a great deal.

Concerning, a "bunch of dancers.." who would you cast that knows the best dancehall moves in Jamaica? Dancehall? I'll explain later. Oh, not necessary? You mean anyone will do for background and they don't need rhythm. You know, they just move around, like they do in rock videos. So you must have a the inside line for foreign production insurance in Kingston? Not necessary? You're telling me I can get a better rate for Rio. Label will totally understand when our drives go missing.

Being all knowing, I need a list for the best hair and makeup in Jamaica, who can work in 110 degree heat , get them in full makeup, add and style extensions, and then get them out of the chair in 45 minutes. Don't need it. Zits and black hair going kinky by lunch is all the rage.

Also, what rates did you have for a two to three day advance purchase on plane tickets? Hotel? Are you kidding, we can always camp. We could always save on crowd control and I could double for the AD. I'm a tough Brooklyn guy, who could just yell at 200 people in the hood to shut up. That always seems to work.

I should've gone one key grip and one gaffer, save some money here,..oh I forgot, now half our gear has been stolen because no one's at the truck and we're ten set ups behind. What? Insurance doesn't cover an unattended vehicle? What? The crowd wants to lynch our hair stylist for being openly gay - what do you mean we didn't pay for protection? Don't worry, I can do hair.....hell, I can style as well. I've an uncanny sense of up to the minute, young woman's styles, as well as do on the spot alterations.

And do tell me where I can find that independent filmmaker's community ready to give me a free hand in a country poor as dirt, you know, like the interns we exploit in LA or NYC. That'll take off the corporate edge. And I'm sure they can safely and quickly light up some oil drums, just like they taught you in film school. If not, they'll figure it out in a few hours.

Anyway, I welcome your insights for the next trip. I'm directing a feature in Pakistan,in about six months about kidnapped children forced to be camel jockey's. Love to hear your ideas on staging camel races.
__________________
Cinetim

[dcarstens]

Just because a producer doesn't screw their crew doesn't mean that they're suckers. I certainly wish more producers respected their crew and the experience they bring, especially in LA.

Good video- I also especially liked the Tami Chynn clip- hot!

[cinebuddy]

I was one of the producers. As you stated, "You did NOT need all the above stuff to pull this off....Lot's of wasted crew here", I can presume you have supernatural insights such as: we have two days to put a show together in the 3rd most dangerous city in the world in it's most dangerous garrison. It's murder rate is currently 30 times that of Brooklyn. You have fourteen hours to cover three locations. After which you have less than a week to deliver an online. You also have to pay people.

So enlighten me, who or what on my list would you get rid of ?

Would you save by replacing our armed drivers for an unarmed regulars? If I put my hat to the back, I could stroll around Kingston on my own and find locations. And it would be a good chance for me to practice my Jamaican patois. Ah, but I speak the langauge of film and everyone wants to lend a helping hand to a filmmaker. Now what deal would you get with the custom's broker? How much would you budget for police checkpoint bribes? How'd you negotiate our "ghetto pass" with the local Don? He's a charming fella and he always gives breaks to foreigners. Concerning, a "bunch of dancers.." who would you cast that knows the best dancehall moves in Jamaica? Dancehall? I'll explain later. Oh, they're not necessary? You mean anyone will do for background even if they don't have rhythm. You know, they can just move around.

So you must have a the inside line for foreign production insurance in Kingston? Not necessary? You're telling me I can get a better rate for Rio. Label will totally understand when our drives go missing.

Being all knowing, I need a list for the best hair and makeup in Jamaica, who can work in 110 degree heat , get them in full makeup, add and style extensions, and then get them out of the chair in 45 minutes. Don't need it. Sorry, didn't know zits and black hair going kinky by lunch is all the rage.

Also, what rates did you have for a two to three day advance purchase on plane tickets? Hotel? Are you kidding, we can always camp. We could always save on crowd control and I could double for the AD. I'm a tough Brooklyn guy, who could just yell at 200 people in the hood to shut up. That always seems to work.

I should've gone one key grip and one gaffer, save some money here,..oh I forgot, now half our gear has been stolen because no one's at the truck and we're ten set ups behind (because we left the 2nd and 3rds behind). What? Insurance doesn't cover an unattended vehicle? What? The crowd wants to lynch our hair stylist for being openly gay - what do you mean we didn't pay for protection? Don't worry, I can do hair.....and while we're at it, let's lose the stylist. If you know hair, you must be up to the minute on young ladie's clothes, be able sew, mend, take it in, let it out, make alterations on the spot... Don't worry about all that. Rock videos don't.

And do tell me where I can find that independent filmmaker's community ready to give me a free hand in a country poor as dirt, you know, like the interns we exploit in LA or NYC. That'll take off the corporate edge.

Anyway, I welcome your insights for the next trip. I'm directing a feature in Pakistan,in about six months about kidnapped children forced to be camel jockey's. Love to hear your ideas on staging camel races.

Why argue with a cat that's obviously done quite a few professional (read label financed) gigs. This is what we all want to do...I did until I read this damn post:) A no budget joint for a friend is a pain in the ass in your own home town. I could always use more crew...or the people who said they'd show to actually show up. Even chubby hood rats with bad weaves and bad skin think they should get paid when the mf shooting the video may be doing it for nothing on the strength of exposure. I wish I had those type of favors to call in. But alot of us don't live in NY and LA where this stuff pays peoples rent and not just shooting for the next contest. Very enlightening post all the way around Tim.

[Tim Naylor]

Feel your pain. Keep plugging away. At least nowadays you can get the gear you need. Back in the day I did a film in Michigan and had to bring gear from NY. Word on the chubby hood rats with bad weaves. I've had artists try to force them on us. Another story....

[Brandon Rice]

Tim, didn't know you shot this there... but why not shoot it in LA? Just curious... I think you would have had more options as well as get great pro's for a lot less (1500 for makeup a day???)... And dude, I know about pro work... in fact, in about two to three months, I'll be producing 12-13 episodes of a TV show (Broadcast, and network quality) and I'll be having a good budget per episode, but I intend to give a lot of bang for the buck... for 25K I just expected a lot more... my OPINION... it's not gospel or law... it's a subjective OPINION. Thanks.

[TimurCivan]

because its a Jamaican Dancehall Video.... the label and artist probably wanted it shot in Jamaica.

[Brandon Rice]

Fair enough... my OPINION still stands... but no matter... props for getting it done...

[puredrifting]

Tim:

Major props, a very polished video shot in tough circumstances. Good lighting, editing and direction. Ten years ago, this video would have cost $250,000.00, amazing you could get it done for 1/10th of that and have it look so good.

Also, you get the trophy for no unecessary slow motion shots. Seems like every R&B and Hip Hop video shot these days has half the video at 120 fps for no reason at all, other than to stretch the time so they didn't have to shoot more setups/locations.

I am leaving for Europe on Friday to shoot footage for a documentary about ancient battlefields. It is astounding how quickly US dollars get eaten up once you leave our borders, I am bringing $7,000.00 IN PETTY CASH, just to get us around the country and shoot for a week. Not to mention the flight, Carnet, trains, hotels, meals, etc. and I alone am essentially the crew. Just for a one man crew to acquire a few hours of footage, the production company will probably be spending at least $13,000.00 to $18,000.00. The U.S. dollar is sucking in comparison to the Euro and pound, our money is getting to be like Lire used to be, not worth very much.

Brandon, just out of curiosity, how many foreign locations have you produced shoots in? A $25,000.00 budget is chump change in LA for anything professional. I shoot regularly on 24 and Prison Break, you do know how big their budgets per episode are, right? And there is a reason why Prison Break had a crew of 200 last time I shot with them. They were shooting prison riots with a cast of hundreds with a very ambitious production schedule. It would have been impossible to get the mount of setups needed per day in episodic without essentially two and a half full crew working at once, one shooting and the other crew and half getting the next scenes. Sounds like Tim had a smaller version of that going on to get this one in the can.

Great work Tim!

Brandon, I sense that you haven't "been there"? (overseas shoots)

Dan

[senne]

This is a commercial project, for promoting a song for a large record company, to sell records. Meaning, there's no way I can ask anyone to work on it for free. Granted we asked favors, because if this were budgeted at full rates, it would be three times the budget. ie) Hair stylist usually works for 1500/day. Choreographer at 3k / day. Makeup 1500/day. We go them for ..... anyway, here are some of the costs that may not be apparent to the unitiated:
- Director, DP, Hair, Lead Dancer, Choreographer, Stylist, Fees, airline tickets/hotel
- Customs broker, import duties and work permits
- Wardrobe
- Producer, Location Manager's Fees
- Crew Fees: 3 grips and 3 electrics, AC, PA's, AD, Drivers
- Location Fee/Permits (with Kingston's "informal" government)
- Protection money:We're not in Kansas....
- Dancers/Extras
- Meals for a 30 plus crew.
- Main location was covered with trash and goat shi* - someone had to clean it
- Casting Director, on short notice you need someone to get you bodies fast
- Camera and Lighting Gear
- Art Director: Those barrels of fire didn't come with the location, string lights, etc
- Crowd Control: Outside of frame are hundreds of people that need to kept out of frame.
- Post Production: A good editor isn't cheap. Beauty work (clearing up bad skin) is a painstaking process. Color correction on DS isn't cheap. In short, if it goes to broadcast, DVC PRO HD color correction in FCP doesn't cut it. Too noisy.

Anyway, I hope this gives you an idea that we did almost "give it away". You can only do favors so many times until you run out of favors to ask and have to pay bills. Also, keep in mind, when you do something like our video, you're contractually obligated to deliver the specs on your treatment. The deadline's are tight. Miss a deadline, you can be in breach. Money pushes work through and gets things done on time. Unlike a personal or non-professional project where the deadlines are vague, you can hunt around, and wait for someone to do something for free. This was not the case.


On my site there's a spec for Epinion shot on 35mm, art direction, makeup, etc. It cost me 5 grand. Looks more "pro" than most everything on my reel. Everything but the stock, processing, transfer and edit were donated to me as a favor to push my career. My "real world" budget assessed it at about 100k and that's a conservative estimate. My thesis in grad school ran 15k. If I paid people it would've run 50k. Can't pull this off again. Favors are rarely for free.

Thanks a lot for explaining. I guess that is mostly time-pressure and security that made this more expensive then one should think.

I liked the other ones to

s

[Tim Naylor]

Regarding those key rates. We never paid close to those rates. I stated their standard rate ie) 1500 for makeup, etc.. Then I alluded to what we got them for.....(considerably less), but for obvious reasons, can't publish the number (a lot less than their commercial rate). They got to make a living. Also,you can't judge an edit unless you've seen the dailies nor can you judge makeup unless you've seen the raw face. Let me add, any pro who's done beauty work will tell you if there's a reason why certain makeup artists make more than DP's. And it's not the size of their tools.

If you know anything about dance, crumping and crip walks LA style, don't cut it in a dancehall video. Trust me, you can't find Jamaican dance in LA. I've tried. Their last video was produced in LA and it shows. They looked like cookie cutter American pop acts. And you're not going to get the same vibe in LA. Straight up. Black Angelinos are as different from Jamaicans as Croatians are from Irish. You know Cossack dancing vs Riverdance thing.

Anyway, I do hope you get the chance to work with 25 grand on a tight deadline, in a 3rd world country with a crime and corruption rate beyond anything City of God could impress upon you or anything you've ever seen. You'll soon realize it's chump change and will be begging for mommie.

Give me your subjective opinion the next time you have to shoot in a war zone (the garrison has a higher kill rate than iraq). LA is disneyland compared to this. But we shoot there because, if you up on dance and dancehall, Jamaica delivers. Only Toronto compares dancewise (lot of west Indians) but they don't have the jungles or the dress.

re: Pure Drifting

Dan, where can I see your work? Gotta an overseas in 6 mo. Love to see your reel. Sounds like you've been there.

Tim Naylor - Dir-DP

[Tim Naylor]

Thanks a lot for explaining. I guess that is mostly time-pressure and security that made this more expensive then one should think.

I liked the other ones to

s
Time pressure and security aside, you still have to pay to get things done right. Labor is cheaper in Jamaica (about 30 percent). You could also ask friends for favors every month. The problem with that is that you need new friends every month. When you have to deliver on time, to the specs of your treatment (it's legally binding), meet basic broadcasting standards and make enough money to have a life, you'll realize we should have done this on 75k. If you really want to know where money goes, look at a budget, line by line, until you know what every line does.

I just worked as a union electric on a commercial to pay some quick bills. You might think I got overpaid on paper. But when my knuckles were sore enough for pain killers and we positioned lights and ran power that no independent passionate amatuer could do at an efficiency rate, non-union could only dream about, you'd say we should've earned double our rates.

[Tim Naylor]

Fair enough... my OPINION still stands... but no matter... props for getting it done...
"My OPINION still stands". What does that mean? Is it a get out of jail card? Does your decree makes it so? Have you been ordained, appointed and annointed. You can do better than that. After all, your cost analysis deduced their was much "wasted crew". Surely you can back opinion with experience and facts. "My opinon stands". Let it sink in - on it's own. Damn, even God has never ventured to be so bold.

[Brandon Rice]

Tim... :) All I am saying is... for the budget (25K) I expected much much more... honestly, if I didn't know how much it cost, I would have just watched and thought it was pretty good, but when you throw the budget out there, then I have certain expectations.

[Brandon Rice]

On my site there's a spec for Epinion shot on 35mm, art direction, makeup, etc. It cost me 5 grand. Looks more "pro" than most everything on my reel. Everything but the stock, processing, transfer and edit were donated to me as a favor to push my career. My "real world" budget assessed it at about 100k and that's a conservative estimate. My thesis in grad school ran 15k. If I paid people it would've run 50k. Can't pull this off again. Favors are rarely for free.

What?! :Drogar-Shock(DBG):

I just took a look at this on your site... and first of all... it was slow, and secondly... 100 GRAND!???? You REALLY think this would have cost you 100 GRAND to do, with paying everyone???? LOL!

I get spending money on film stock, but how much do you seriously use on a spec with 14 shots???? I am seriously in shock...

The makeup effects were great and all, but I could get a makeup artist to do that for $500.

Anyway... wow... lol :grin:

[g0ldenb0y55]

I must agree with Brandon on this one! A conservative 100K estimate for that project seems a little over the top based on the completed spec that I viewed on your sight.

Just my opinion.

[cinebuddy]

Tim:

Also, you get the trophy for no unecessary slow motion shots. Seems like every R&B and Hip Hop video shot these days has half the video at 120 fps for no reason at all, other than to stretch the time so they didn't have to shoot more setups/locations.



Whoa Dan! Wait a minute! Didn't you see the Chapelle show?! Everything is better and cooler in Slow Motion.

[Barry_Green]

Brandon... in the real world of professional production people, things cost a lot of money. According to the AICP, the *average* cost for a car commercial a few years ago was $330,000.00. That's for a Nissan or Honda commercial, not some local used-car dealer.

Do you think those people are "stupid" or "don't know what they're doing"? Au contraire, these are the best production companies in the world, working for the best agencies in the world, working for the biggest and best clients in the world. And that's what it ends up costing, and that's the way it should be.

Commercial DPs get $2500 to $10,000 per day. Commercial directors can do even better. Real equipment costs money -- there's a massive difference between a Stickypod and a professional car mount, a huge difference between a Techno Crane and a Kessler, and it's a difference that makes a difference in the final product. Travel costs money, a preposterous amount of it. Crew costs money. Sets cost money -- a lot of it. On our Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun project, the Montauk and Kodiak sets cost, IIRC, about $40,000 each. And that was a decade ago!

And people do like to get paid for what they do. Producers and production personnel. Preproduction costs money -- in the professional production world, people get paid for their preproduction days as well as the actual production days.

Video is expensive because good video is very effective marketing and sales tool. When McDonald's or Burger King pays $2,000,000.00 just to *air* a spot one time at the Super Bowl, do you really think they want to throw together that spot for $5,000? They want the best writers, the best crew, the best director, the best everything. They have to guarantee their results by hiring the best.

I think all you're really trying to say is "I could have done that for less." Maybe, maybe not. But even if you could, why should you? Why not be rewarded for your skill, talent, and hard work -- rather than slaving for pennies and driving down the overall value of the professional video production community?

[Tim Naylor]

Brandon,
I should clarify. It cost me very little - actually most likely closer to 3k than 5k. The 100k is a number that many a commercial agency would've spent. If the can spend more for a typical "office" spot with flat light, 100k is not a stretch. That's when the corporate layers get deep. Instead of a ninelight, they would use an 18k or two, instead of house power it would be a Genny truck (with Teamster and every vehicle down to crew van would have a teamster or two), instead of one admin, it would be five deep, instead of 2 and 2 it would be 4 and 4 at full union rates, instead of 3 takes, they'd do 30 (until the client is happy), instead of one monitor there'd be at least three. And so on. Now I'm cofident most anyone on this site could produce it for much less, I was just plugging in numbers into a typical commercial spreadsheet, replicating the numbers of people, gear, etc a typical spot of this scale would use based on my experience as a technician on commercials.

There's no denying the waste here. But if it's for a company making gazillions off a product the budget can never be too big, especially if you get 8-10 percent of it. I've no problem with a whole village making a living off a few spots. And regarding makeup, you could get someone for 500 or less. But if it's for a large corporation - why? Typically, your top commercial makeup artists start at 1500 and up. EFX makeup even more.

Also, in post. An agency may have you do two or three onlines because someone at international doesn't have a properly calibrated TV in Belgium (happened recently). In short, they over budget for everything.

The company my partner and I recently signed with has been educational. I've had to re adjust my thinking. I came from the self produced by the bootstraps school where I always made a dollar out of 15 cents (much like yourself). And I'll still do that when I direct my first feature. Now when I write a treatment for a large label, I get a budget back that's often double what I was expecting. I know I could do it for less on my own but the guarantee of using the best you can find gets weaker also my paycheck (a percentage of the budget) gets smaller. When it's for a large corp making untold amounts off your efforts, I say, take what you can.

I see some real fine work here (ie Endeavor video), and I hope once folks get their "break out" piece to avoid as much as possible under selling yourself.

My Nickels Worth

[Brandon Rice]

There's no denying the waste here. But if it's for a company making gazillions off a product the budget can never be too big, especially if you get 8-10 percent of it. I've no problem with a whole village making a living off a few spots. And regarding makeup, you could get someone for 500 or less. But if it's for a large corporation - why? Typically, your top commercial makeup artists start at 1500 and up. EFX makeup even more.


Fair enough, I completely understand and get your point...

Think if big companies actually thought more carefully about their budgets... I am sure they could get the same quality for less, but alas, they have the money, and do not care, which is a good problem to have I guess :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

[Tim Naylor]

Sometimes the worse reputation you can have is being the guy known for 30k videos/spots that look like a 100k. They'll never spend a 100k on you.

[Brandon Rice]

Yea, sometimes making something great for less becomes the worst thing for you.

[g0ldenb0y55]

Sometimes the worse reputation you can have is being the guy known for 30k videos/spots that look like a 100k. They'll never spend a 100k on you.

Well said! There's your common ground. :laugh:

Now let's all have beverage!:beer:

[Barry_Green]

Maybe... but I am also saying that it seems as though HOPEFULLY as time goes on, people (companies included) will realize they don't have to spend 1/4 million dollars for a commercial, but instead spend less, hire less crew (same pay rate) and still get a bangin' product.

Why? Why is this a good thing for video producers, or anyone else?

Let's say you could work one of two ways to produce the same thing. In scenario A, you approach it the existing professional way: you draw up a conventional budget, hire a great storyboard artist, produce your concept drawings, hire a fantastic line producer to budget the project, you pitch it to the agency, they agree, you then hire professional crew and professional actors and have professional sets manufactured and you have a professional caterer and professional craft services, and you work 8-hour or 10-hour days where everyone works at a comfortable level, nobody's over-stressing, and everyone's getting paid well for a job well done. Then the project is taken to a professional post house where it undergoes professional grading on top-quality gear, professional audio sweetening, graphics creation, editing, everything. It's mastered to a final professional mastering format and ready for air. And everyone who worked on it makes a good living for a solid day's work; the cheapest person on the crew gets $300/day and the front-line guys like the director and DP get maybe $2500 to $5000/day.

Or, there's scenario B: you pitch a lowball pitch to a client and they say "great, I can take ruthless advantage of this kid and only spend $2,000 for my video." So you get that miniscule penny-filled budget and you use your DV camcorder and you con some of your friends into acting in it and you scramble around to find locations you can use for free, and you work like an absolute slave and you spend 14 hours per day running around like a chicken with your head cut off, trying to do six jobs all by yourself because you can't afford to hire a production manager or a director of photography or a gaffer or a sound person, and you wear yourself out rushing this production together and getting what you can. And then you stay up endless nights hulking over your Adobe Premiere system, trying to do all the graphics and all the sound effects yourself, rushing madly against a deadline that you can't possibly meet but hey, the client demands it... but in the end, you produce a fantastic-looking piece that rivals the big-budget one.

So you worked 20x as hard, got 1/100th as much money for it, and put a whole lot of people out of work in order for you to work much harder, just so you could be drastically underpaid.

Can you please explain WHY this is a good thing, and why you look forward to scenario B as a positive? It's a recipe for disaster, is what it is. In scenario A, everyone wins. In scenario B, only the company wins; everyone else loses.

[Brandon Rice]

Barry, I believe there's a balance between your two scenarios.

Yes, hire pro's and get it done professionally. But so often I see unnecessary crew members... you don't need three makeup assistants, or 6 grips, etc. I'm saying, yes, do it pro, and get paid for your work, but also be smart.

[Barry_Green]

Let me try it again: you say that "HOPEFULLY" (in all caps) you want to see budgets go down and fewer people hired. So how, in your viewpoint, is this a hopeful thing? Who wins in that scenario?

It's very much like a mom and pop craft store saying "HOPEFULLY Wal-Mart will come to town and sell the same thing we do for a lot less."

Or "HOPEFULLY our boss will soon realize that he can outsource our jobs to India for 25 cents an hour."

I cannot imagine why you think this is a good thing. Unless you're thinking that you're not able to compete with the "big boys" or something? If that's the case, up your skill level, up your negotiating skills, and go compete. But please don't think it's a good thing to put dozens or hundreds of good, hard-working craftspeople out of work.

[Brandon Rice]

And after ALL OF THAT... getting all of the information from Tim... I believe he did a good job hiring the right amount of crew and producing this... he had a tough situation to work with, and made it happen... We don't live in a perfect world, and we can't always get to shoot where we want and when we want... sometimes (as in this case) we have to work on the fly, no matter what the cost... So I take back what I said initially, but my philosophy still stands.

[David Jimerson]

Brandon . . .

This is a little bit like wondering why Smith & Wollenksy hire executive chefs, maitre des, buy china and crystal, etc., when Ponderosa will still give you a steak with teenagers, a cashier, and plastic plates and cups for a lot less.

[Brandon Rice]

I don't see it as the same at all... I think the analogy breaks down... because I'm not saying, sacrifice any quality, I'm saying, pick your spots to hire people, and don't just hire for the sake of hiring.

Don't hire people because "That's how it's done"

Hire them because "I need that person"

[Barry_Green]

Okay, look -- here's what it is. Let's say your boss came to you and said "Brandon, we think you're so talented, we've decided to fire everyone else in your department, plus we're going to cut your pay from $20/hr to $8/hr. But we still expect you to turn in the same amount of work and the same quality of work."

Would you think that's a good thing, something to be hopeful about? Because that's EXACTLY what we're talking about here.

[David Jimerson]

I think it's pretty rare that people are hired just for the sake of giving them jobs. That's no way to run a business.

I'd submit that the people you thought were unnecessary actually were peforming valuable functions -- perhaps not at the moment you were observing them, but they weren't there for nothing.

It's not even so much "that's how it's done." It's very much "when we do this, the results are excellent." You can usually see it on the screen, too, when compared to the productions which don't put as much money into it.

It's not just film production, of course; it's any business -- and when you've been out in the business world for long enough, are responsible for bringing in large projects, and find out how much nicer it is to have a lot of help as compared to not having it, you'll start to understand why it's done that way.

[Erik Olson]

Brandon,

I've worked documentary, reality, features, ILM SFX crew (3 features, two commercials including the First Union circus spots) and shows like Party of Five and Nash Bridges. I think you're really misinterpreting what you've witnessed as a casual observer on a professional set.

I won't say there is never any waste, but the sheer amount of work that is accomplished in shots, pages, seconds or any other measure is far beyond what you have interpreted it to be.

Professionals are compensated for their work during all phases of production. Professional craftspeople will not work out of pocket. Why should they - they have no residual interest in the project. Whether they love their work or not, it is a job.

When I worked on Bridges for CBS, we had one of the fastest, best looking single-camera shows in primetime. We did between 18 and 25 unique locations during each 10 day episode. We did process work on city streets from ShotMakers and executed stunts and pyro each and every week. That show had literally 100s of people working on it and a rough budget of $2.5M / ep.

We scrambled to get that show in the can each week and had it locked to air the following Friday night. That's about 20 days from script to deliverable. This simply couldn't have been accomplished with people "standing around" or without the necessary assets on the ground. CBS had zero tolerance for a delay in deliverables and that pressure was constant for the six or seven seasons we were on.

Anyway, I think you are a bit off the mark. You might find, as you develop your own show for broadcast, that adopting an attitude of flexibility toward the process of professional production will serve you well.

Not a dig, just the way it is in virtually 100% of television, commercial and music video production. At least the stuff that doesn't distribute principally through outlets like YouTube.

e

[esperman]

Brandon, I see you've never worked with a union crew.

"I think you're really misinterpreting what you've witnessed as a casual observer on a professional set."

I agree 100%.

[Neil Rowe]

..i can see where your coming from brandon, as i also personally embrace that independent spirit which you seem to hold dear to. id much rather own my own small production company, than work for a well known one in hollywood.. and still managing to turn out something top notch in spite of smaller budgets is a really kick butt thought. but some time ago i realized that the more work that i do, the less and less i want to be paid less than what im worth. honestly, its hard sometimes when other independents ask what i want for a daily rate, and i give them a standard rate. .. they sort of do a double take and wonder why im asking for a seemingly large amount when they know i could do it for less. of course some people view it as some sort of betrayal to the independent spirit, but truth be told, they arent going to get anyone else around that can do it at the same level for less. so why should i spend more time away from freinds and family working just because im an independent at heart? nobody starts out as an independent hoping that they will alwys have small budgets and smaller paychecks. there comes a time when you have to cross that line and say .. i may be independent, but im a professional, and i deserve to be paid and respected as a professional. ..because nobody else is going to view you like that until you view yourslef like that..and of course have the talent, knowledge and skill to back it up. and of course your crew needs to be comprised of professionals as well. when working for someone else, you just have to stop thinking with your own wallet. .. and while i agreee that the crew COULD be whittled down in many circumsatnces, i also agree with Barry in asking "why would you want to?" .. if anything is going to make it easier for everyone on set to do thier job with less stress and more confidence then i want it. i just dont see any reason to make it harder for everyone when it doesnt have to be. this doesnt mean that i wouldnt want to get down and dirty when i had to, it just means im not going to swim acrossed a river drag myself through the mud when theres a bridge one step away.

so yeah, i can look at a nice video like this and say that it probably couldve been done cheaper, but my goal in life is not to make my projects cheaper.. its to make my projects better, and more importantly have a better life with less stress, less work, and more time to spend with family and freinds.. so i dont really care how much its costs someone else to accomplish that when they are very happily signing the paychecks as they reach thier own goals through me.

[dcarstens]

Brandon is no doubt a disciple of Robert Rodriguez's "El Mariachi" legend, and while I get a blast out of reading "Rebel Without a Crew", in the end the result of a one-man-band is still absolutely apparent on screen. As for you Brandon, I always admire the gumption of low-budget filmmakers and always enjoy seeing what one can pull off with minimal resources, which is why I spend a great deal of time viewing footage from this very forum, but there comes a time when you just need to concede that you may still have something to learn, rather than insisting that the pros have it all wrong. Face it- while many projects look good CONSIDERING that they were done with little resources, they won't stand up to the quality required by "CSI". That is why they hire the crew they need. As for the pay scale issue- I am willing to do favors for friends and shoot one pro-bono student project per year, but I'd be quite annoyed by requests to do a commercial project for an insulting wage. You may be able to pull favors from friends, but it's detrimental to all of us if you think that you should be able to make it the norm.

[inspire84]

I worked on a major music video that the budget would of been in the $100,000 range. I saw some absolute unnessary equipment rentals and crew hiring. There were about 50 PA's and grip on set, it was an absolute mess, people crossing back and forth, three full truckloads full of lighting, when one scene was only lit with 2 kino's. Sometimes they do this to please the corporation to make it "show" that it's a big budget. The funniest thing all days was that they set up a video village for the execs to watch the feed through the camera while shooting. Mid- way through that scene i was like, how can the Director see what's going on when these are the two only monitors on set. The Director hadn't even realized he needed a monitor until after 2 hours. I dunno i think it works both ways, there's so much discussion here and i just butted in. But i think i remember people on this board saying in the past how they wanted to buy certain cameras just to impress clients because it was bigger than the DVX or HVX. That mentality i disagree with. Bottom line is budget aside, look at the work for the work. But i have to agree, sometimes i look at things then i find the budget out and say "where was the money spent"

[Barry_Green]

That's not what we're talking about here... Explain.

Quote from Brandon Rice:

HOPEFULLY as time goes on, people (companies included) will realize they don't have to spend 1/4 million dollars for a commercial, but instead spend less, hire less crew (same pay rate) and still get a bangin' product.

Rephrased by BG:

Let's say your boss came to you and said "Brandon, we think you're so talented, we've decided to fire everyone else in your department, plus we're going to cut your pay from $20/hr to $8/hr. But we still expect you to turn in the same amount of work and the same quality of work."

Same thing. Slash the budget, slash the employee roster, but expect to still get a "bangin' product." To me that's not something to hope for, that's something to dread. As a professional producer, I'd say the scenario would more likely be: let's hope that companies realize that if they want a bangin' product, they have to pay for the crew, the talent, and the expertise that it takes to produce such a product. And hopefully, this will allow those top-notch crewmembers, directors, producers, etc. to earn an even better living this year than they did last year.

In short: as a video producer you want your budget going UP, not DOWN. Don't know how to say that any more clearly.

[Neil Rowe]

yeah.. Brandon, basically if someone on the street walked up to you and said

"Hey, right now i will give you 1 million dollars to hire and direct a bunch of people at your disposal to get something done for me and you'll get to keep one hundred thousand for yourself

....or,

ill pay you ten thousand dollars to work your rear end off for a couple months doing it all yourself with a couple of your professional friends"

----------------

..and your saying..

"well, ..what your asking me to do might be possible to get done with just me and my freinds.. so that must be the best way to do it. the other way just seems wasteful"


-------

and the rest of the world is saying..

"..i cant believe you just did that"




..since when did the notion of everyone having thier cake and eating it too become out of style?

[David Jimerson]

Do NOT underestimate the value of getting home to have dinner with your wife/family at a decent hour every night.

You aren't going to do that your way.

[Brandon Rice]

Hey... trust me, I want my budgets going up, not down... in fact, we're pitching a script that has a 4-6 mil. dollar budget in a few weeks... do I hope we get the budget? Heck yes! But guess what... others would make the same script for 24 mil. dollars... that's all I'm saying.

[David Jimerson]

I would bet, then, that even if they didn't make a better product (which they probably would for 4-6 times the budget, with no disrespect intended to your work), they'd have a much happier crew when it was over.

[Brandon Rice]

I do not agree, because they'd be using old school methods, which just makes the budget balloon... look at Sin City. It had a 40million budget, and guess what, if it had been directed by someone else, it would have had a 80million budget.

[Brandon Rice]

Even though RR's film budget have gone up (since El Mariachi) his thinking has stayed the same... Fast, Cheap, but still professional and great. That's what I believe, and will continue to believe, even as my projects (hopefully) get bigger and have higher budgets.

Also, for the record... RR has happy crews.

[Barry_Green]

I would bet, then, that even if they didn't make a better product (which they probably would for 4-6 times the budget, with no disrespect intended to your work), they'd have a much happier crew when it was over.

And perhaps they'd have 18 million dollars more.

If it's really possible to deliver the same caliber work for less money, don't you think that the biggest, smartest, most successful people in the world would be doing it?

Or is it just that somehow, after over 100 years of producing the biggest, highest-budgeted, best productions in the world, they've all gotten stupid somewhere? Spending too much time on their private jets, going out on dates with Jennifer Aniston and Angelina Jolie, and spending too much time attending red-carpet premieres for their blockbuster films? Sorry, but if you ask who's got the right way figured out, er... the evidence seems to point to them, and not to the struggling indie guy working alone in his bedroom at night trying to do four people's jobs...

[sonic freak]

Money, money, money. we're all talkin' about money, money, money.

who cares who much something costs?

Did it come out RIGHT?

Is the client STOKED?

that's all that matters. nothing else. it's just money. you'll make more.

of course if you don't want to spend it, good on you. it's just a decision.

if anybody thinks i'm crazy I have a lot of experience doing very pricey videos (500,000k was tops) But that's just the way it was ten years ago. Nowadays, things can be done cheaper. But it wouldn't have been as fun...:laugh:

I'll have to admit, when I used to see 5 assistant producers on their cell phones all day, it pissed me off (this is from a band perspective mind you..) those days are long gone.....

Let's all get happy that we're doing this in any capacity- 1 million dollar budget or 50 bucks!

I watched this video and I thought it was good. I wasn't blown away, but I can respect what they had to go through and knowing that, it makes it even more impressive.

Peace!

[Erik Olson]

If Brandon needs a hug after all this abuse, I can send Eddie "Molotov" Ramos over from the transportation department to console him. Oh, wait... Brandon fired him already.

J/K!!!

e

[Brandon Rice]

I'm going to peace-out of this discussion... this is as subjective as movies themselves... so keep doing what you're doing, and I'll keep doing what I'm doing, and if at the end of the day, we're both pushing out good product, that's all that matters! :)

[Isaac_Brody]

Brandon, your lack of experience has you on the defensive and in the minority. You've never shot overseas nor have you shot on an episodic show where you need a larger crew to meet the strict shooting deadlines. You can't shoot CSI or Law and Order on a shoestring budget in your backyard.

And to quote RR's perspective shows a great deal of naivete on your part. Tim made a kickass video under ridiculous time constraints. He was gracious enough to share his workflow in getting it done. And to have you piss in his thread about this being a very simple video easy to pull off is ridiculous. I haven't seen your work match what Tim did in a short period of time.

Enough already, this is off topic from Tim's thread and it's spoiling what he accomplished.

[Brandon Rice]

I apologize for the OT discussion Tim, and yes, having found out more information, I agree as I said earlier, you did a great job.

[g0ldenb0y55]

Really guys, as long as the client is happy with the end product that's all that matters.

We all have our opinions and we all have our ways of doing things.

If Brandon feels that he can accomplish the same task that Tim accomplished for a smaller budget, then good for him! We really won't know if he could do it or not until he does it. Everything else is speculation IMO.

I'm sure that all of us at some point have watched something and said "they made that for that budget, where did the money go?" I think that this is the case here.

We all have an opinion and I think it's great that we share them!

[Luis Caffesse]

Tim -
Kick ass work.
Had I gotten that phone call, I would have frozen up and thought "there is no damn way I can pull this off in time." Nice job pulling the whole thing together and get it in delivered on such a short deadline!

I'm impressed - not only with the video, but with the circumstances under which it was made. Thanks for sharing all those behind the scenes details.

[Brandon Rice]

Tim... with what you had, great work!

To everyone else, I am sorry for the long and off-topic craziness that happened, and it should have been discussed elsewhere. I think we were all saying the same thing, in different ways, and I agree with what you've said... I just want to be smart about producing, that's all.

[Tim Naylor]

Barry, I believe there's a balance between your two scenarios.

Yes, hire pro's and get it done professionally. But so often I see unnecessary crew members... you don't need three makeup assistants, or 6 grips, etc. I'm saying, yes, do it pro, and get paid for your work, but also be smart.
Actually,
If you have several featured players say for a choreographed number. You need at least four makeup assistants if you don't want the set waiting. Certain things pay for themselves. If we're doing a show that we have to do in a day, with two or three sets, we may have six grips. Three on the main set and three pre-rigging the next one. It's things like that that enable an immense amount of coverage in a short period with high value.

[Tim Naylor]

Really guys, as long as the client is happy with the end product that's all that matters.

We all have our opinions and we all have our ways of doing things.

If Brandon feels that he can accomplish the same task that Tim accomplished for a smaller budget, then good for him! We really won't know if he could do it or not until he does it. Everything else is speculation IMO.

I'm sure that all of us at some point have watched something and said "they made that for that budget, where did the money go?" I think that this is the case here.

We all have an opinion and I think it's great that we share them!
At the end of the day the clients (Geffen, Akon and the Artists) were ecstatic. They love it more than their 300k video. But that was our last introductory blue light special. Our job with this particularly song was not to create something aesthetically ground breaking like a Chris Cunningham video but to sell the Girls and the Song to their target market. The requirments were that: we show where they're from, make them look hot, and show them as having distinct looks and personalities (one vulnerable, one hard).

Hence, we got locations and dancers that capture Kingston's "downtown" scene. The dance is very different than what we do in the US. Tanisha Scott (up for VMA best choreographer, does all of Sean Paul's stuff) came down from Brooklyn and worked on the movement as well as give us her own moves in the sunset silhouettes; Q (one of NYC top hair stylist, Iman, Kimora Lee,Etc) really made somethin out of a bad hair day while being berated by a virulently and violently anti-gay crowd; Ras Tingle (shooterr of Welcome to Jamrock) worked camera for me; Earl Brown (Ja's top Gaffer-Stella Got Her Groove, etc) was simply amazing, setting keys before I asked just where I wanted them.

But in all this posts the hero I really need to praise is: THE HVX 200. No one asks what it was shot on. It's not even an issue. This says something about this camera considering the labels are still obsessed with 35mm. Our production company loved the offline so much they thought we had already color corrected. We used to be told that HD can't look good enough for labels/beauty work. That discussion doesn't even come up. Also, the small camera in an area that borders on chaos really came in handy. The one thing I strongly recommend when doing low budget on an HVX and the client (label) is there - do not cheap out on the monitor. The small camera, we're not impressed, attitude is still there. But it's easily squashed by an amazing full size image. The BTH 1700 is my second gear hero. Client just loved that monitor. Very few suggestions (re: veiled orders) from the label on set. And I believe it's because the say the end result on set. They love that as opposed to waiting for it to come back from telecine.

I grew up on film and flatbeds , DP'd several features on 35mm and S-16mm, but even with bigger budgets, I plan to go D-20, Phantm and RED (when it gets here). I'm a huge fan of seeing results on set. I don't believe in keeping the client in the dark, literally and figuratively. It results in the right project for them and no surprises for you down the road.

Also, I know this is a gear forum, but I do enjoy the discussion about budgets, deals, salaries and getting what you pay. It goes both ways. There's been moments that remind me how I started as a filmmaker and shouldn't forget. There's also useful advice for the upstarts that they won't teach you in film school.

Thanks all for keeping it interesting.

Tim Naylor
www.timnaylor.com

[Tim Naylor]

I forgot to add.

I never submitted anything before aside from tech reviews/tips. But I really felt that this video was relevant to the forum because a major label will be promoting a video shot on a prosumer camera. That doesn't happen too often.

If it were Varicam our budget would've gone up another 8 grand (shipping, rental, customs, deck rental, etc); film was out of the question; 35 adaptor would've slowed us down (2nd AC and Lenses) and the clarity with an HVX is not quite there yet for the label. They want tack sharp. HVX made it possible.

Now I know this video isn't for everyone. The metal head / two left feet crowd wasn't our target. Fortunately for me, I actually love the artists and the song. It meant even more after I found out the dark haired girl wrote it for the father of her child after he got taken away on a 15 year bid. I found it clever how she dressed the pathos in the lyrics with dancehall/pop sound. Some of the most positive sounding music comes from the most dire circumstances while often the most depressing and angst ridden comes out of the most comfortable of worlds. The other aspect not mentioned in video productions are it's effect on the surrounding community. The community leaders, people on the street, etc, thanked us for showing their hood not in the usual grim/squalor that foreigners do (they could see the monitor), bringing some work into the community and showing their kids that they can make something out of themselves (except for three people-our entire crew was from Kingston). The first time I shot in Jamaica, a gang war ceased fire for the artist as we shot in Spanish Town.

And then the last thing we're proud of was that this was their "last shot" video. It's helping them get back on the map. Song is in the top 5 euro charts and in a week has 80k hits on youtube. So far so good.

On a last note, I do believe that commercial/video productions are more slow to embrace new technology than say indies. And everytime the new tech hits a homerun, it's begins to make inroads. With this video, if it gets enough spins, I won't have to fight to shoot digital or shoot it just because it's cheaper but on the fact that it can deliver.

[TimurCivan]

Tim youre a valuable member here, and i look forward to learnign more from you.

[Nic Aragon]

Tim youre a valuable member here, and i look forward to learnign more from you.

ditto.

[Brandon Rice]

I do believe that commercial/video productions are more slow to embrace new technology than say indies. And everytime the new tech hits a homerun, it's begins to make inroads. With this video, if it gets enough spins, I won't have to fight to shoot digital or shoot it just because it's cheaper but on the fact that it can deliver.

Well said! :beer::thumbsup:

[g0ldenb0y55]

Now I know this video isn't for everyone. The metal head / two left feet crowd wasn't our target.

What's wrong with metal heads with two left feet? LOL

On the real, I grew up with hip-hop and R&B, but I do listen to just about anything. Now that I'm older... man that sounds depressing...:huh:

[J.R. Hudson]

I cannot fathom having any crew member that is a waste. I'd kill for a full crew to take care of me (I know Barry Green would !).

There is a reason people specialize and can concentrate on thier craft. I don't want my production coordinator multi tasking by picking up pizzas.

[cinebuddy]

Yo all jokes aside you shot a vid for Geffen. People can nit pick all day, but unless you've been living under a rock you know who Akon is and if he's happy with your performance on a 25k budget then i'm sure that will lead to bigger and better things. I'm happy for you man and i'm seeing this video on all the important urban culture sites, bossip, concrete loop and allhiphop.com. This is vid is getting a lot of burn already and these are the fans that matter at the end of the day downloading it to their ipods and cranking to it the clubs. 55 thousand views on you tube since aug 8th and nothing but kind words on the comments. Shit that's 25k well spent. Kingston stand up!

[senne]

Hey man check what i saw on my TV around noon. I live in Belgium by the way.

http://a980.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/75/l_b16e8be0ff3d8dfc8ac2b4d13b87a503.jpg

[MotionFx]

Sweet video! I am showing it to a client to convince them to let me use the HVX..

Thanks guys for the incredible insights.
Brian

[MotionFx]

To Tim Naylor or anyone who can answer:

to quote Tim Naylor: "I find HVX 200 really sucks to color correct in DVC HD. Noisy codec. We upconverted via Kona to D5 720p/59.94 uncompressed 8 bit. Then fed it to the DS and Flame."

pardon my ignorance, is this still using the p-2 card transfer and then upconverting inside the edit system or is this a capture from tape via Kona to edit?

..or am I totally missing the boat?


Thanks,
Brian

[BLUESPIDER]

Tim,

bottom line, you're video looks tight! Looking forward on your next projects. Duce!

BLUESPIDER

[Tim Naylor]

To Tim Naylor or anyone who can answer:

to quote Tim Naylor: "I find HVX 200 really sucks to color correct in DVC HD. Noisy codec. We upconverted via Kona to D5 720p/59.94 uncompressed 8 bit. Then fed it to the DS and Flame."

pardon my ignorance, is this still using the p-2 card transfer and then upconverting inside the edit system or is this a capture from tape via Kona to edit?

..or am I totally missing the boat?


Thanks,
Brian
Sorry about being a bit vague. Here we go:
- p2 cards to p2 store, p2 store to hardrive as mxf data
- hardrive, import p2, convert to quicktime
- offline in original codec (23.98, dvc pro hd, 720 PN)
- take offline drive to online facility (Manic in NYC)
- FCP file via Kona card upconvert to 720p uncompressed 8bit output to D5 tape.
- D5 tape ingested into Avid DS. (Can't go directly from FCP/Kona to Avid DS)
- Color correct in DS. Great for Color correct. Blows FCP away.
- Selects for composite work are exported directly to a Flame station
- Beauty work and Sky replacement/enhancement done in Flame. Faster. Better.
- Selects sent back to DS and dropped in
- Output online to D5 and digi beta
- reimport D5 via Kona Card into FCP converting into Quicktime file
- QT file used for web and DVD compression

Hope that answers things.

Tim Naylor - DP

www.timnaylor.com