Sony XDCAM EX

[LuckyStudio 13]

3x 1/2" sensor
4:2:0
native 24p
1080/720 switchable
1080 at 60i,50i,30p,25p,24p
720 at 60p, 50p
2hrs with 2x 16gig express card
mpeg GOP (mpeg HD codec)
built in HD-SDI

http://wm.vitalstreamcdn.com/sony_vitalstream_com/xdcamDVD.wmv

[kiyong]

also, fully manual fujinon lens.

can't wait till this camera comes out.

hvx200, you had a nice run.

[Schmolic]

Are you talking about the pmw-EX1?
I have just seen it advertised on a uk website as coming soon.

http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_item_cat.php?catalogue_number=sony_pmw-ex1

Did anyone see it at NAB2007? Creative say it was displayed there. I bet those 3 1/2" CCD's let in a hell of a lot more light !? Has anyone seen it, held it, tried it or seen any footage taken with it?
Creative also claim that it will be available around October, November in their store. Is it already on sale in the US or anywhere else in the world?

[Schmolic]

O.k. no need to answer that last question. I did what I should have done in the first place! Go to Sony's site!! Should be released "Oct 2007."

[LuckyStudio 13]

This cam and its full specs, should be announced in the next few weeks at IBC, Amsterdam, so stay tuned.

[myCharlie]

Where on Sony site that says this camera will be released in Oct 2007? I'm trying to find info on the release date of this camera.

[Schmolic]

www.sonybiz.net/xdcamex

I cant seem to find the site in the US where I saw the Oct 2007 release.
The above site is UK, their date is for November

[myCharlie]

Thanks! I tried to look for it in the US but so far I couldn't find any information. However, I'm a little disapointed that the camera does not have interchangeble lense capability.

[LuckyStudio 13]

taken from freshdv

The long-awaited Sony XDCAM EX officially launches on Thursday the 6th at IBC in Amsterdam, and we’ll (hopefully) get a closer look at some real, detailed specs. In the meantime, here are the details we’ve been able to glean on this very interesting camcorder. A little bird told us… *The official model designation of the XDCAM EX is “PMW-EX1″. In the past few months I’ve noted several instances in which Sony has used the phrase “EX series”. To me that is a clear indication that other models will follow. So perhaps we’ll see a feature-limited CMW-EX1 in the near future.
*The camcorder will feature three 1/2″ progressive chips, possibly CMOS since they have been noted as “new” and “low-power”. No specifics on whether or not they’ll be full native 1920×1080, or 1440×1080 like the XDCAM HD 1/2″ series of shoulder mount cameras. My guess is the latter, Sony traditionally seems to be very protective of “pro” series cameras, and probably wouldn’t risk undermining the XDCAM HD shoulder-mount series by putting too many gizmo’s in this offering. If the XDCAM EX does drop with full raster chips, that might pose a problem for NLE software. Does Final Cut Pro and the like even support XDCAM HD media at 1920×1080? Though I suppose in FCP you could just drop the clips into a timeline with ProRes 422 as the render codec. The other question about the chips…if they are in fact CMOS, will they feature a global (non-rolling) shutter design?
*The camcorder records to solid-state ExpressCard media, currently available in 8, 16, and 32GB capacities. It has two slots. At full HQ (35Mbps, VBR) you’ll get 2.5 minutes per gigabyte. At 25Mbps CBR, expect to fit 3.5 minutes per GB. So two 16GB cards will net you 90 min @ 35Mbps variable, and 115 min @ 25Mbps constant bitrate. Double that for 32GB cards, rinse, repeat.

http://www.freshdv.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/cinealta.thumbnail.gif (http://www.freshdv.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/cinealta.gif)*Has overcrank and undercrank functions. A Sony Japan rep was quoted at NAB Expo saying “all frame rates from 1fps to 60fps” would be supported. Can playback everything on cam at will. 23.98fps (24p), 1080 switchable, 60i, 60p, 50i, 50p, 30p, 25p, 24p. However, it can only do 720 lines at 50p and 60p. This might be because of imager heat issues, who knows…
*The camera features a 14x non-servo lens by Fujinon with a fully manual iris ring and a REAL repeatable focus ring with infinity and macro stops. The lens barrel is equipped to accept standard follow focus units, stock. Handy.
http://www.freshdv.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/sony_xdcam_ex_fuji_lens_detail1.thumbnail.gif (http://www.freshdv.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/sony_xdcam_ex_fuji_lens_detail1.gif)*The EX will weigh about 2.2 kg. The Sony HVR-Z1U weighs 2.1 kg (4 lbs 10 oz), so that should give you a pretty good idea of it’s size. Quite manageable at under 5 pounds.
*Each of the two XLR mic inputs can utilize phantom power (selectable line/mic/mic +48V).
*Features a HD-SDI output port in pictures. Hope that option is still there. Does not appear to have any other A/V outputs or a LANC jack on prototype images I have seen. Surely those are options that will be on the production model!
http://www.freshdv.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/sony_xdcam_ex_storage_media_detail.thumbnail.gif (http://www.freshdv.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/sony_xdcam_ex_storage_media_detail.gif)*Finally, a (unsubstantiated) rumor post over at the DVinfo Area 51 forum mentioned that a “source” stated the camcorder’s debut price will be $6000. This would be welcome news, as most estimates point towards a $8K MSRP. At $6K, it really stacks up well against the HVX200.

[mjeppsen]

Juan Martinez of Sony Electronics has also left a few comments about the XDCAM EX
http://www.freshdv.com/2007/08/sony-xdcam-ex-pre-launch-specs.html

[ChrisForbes]

I have been told the XDCAM EX "PMW-EX1" will hit shelves 8 weeks after IBC. So somewhere around Nov. 1st-10th

[Barry_Green]

First price listed in any store that I know of is 3,995 GBP (at today's exchange rate that'd be $8,079... but that doesn't mean anything, since the MSRP in Europe may not be the same as the MSRP in America).

[LuckyStudio 13]

Official brochure from Sony Australia

http://www.sony.com.au/objects/PDF/PDWEX1_Brochure.pdf

[LuckyStudio 13]

A user's preliminary REVIEW of the XDCAM EX

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_EU&contentId=1187079500753

[LuckyStudio 13]

Another review is up

http://www.ingenioustv.com/xdcamex.asp

[myCharlie]

Very nice review. However, I thought I read somewhere that the lense is 1/2" CCD and not CMOS. Which one is it? And which is better, CMOS or CCD?

[mjeppsen]

Very nice review. However, I thought I read somewhere that the lense is 1/2" CCD and not CMOS. Which one is it? And which is better, CMOS or CCD?Sony's australian brochure states that the imager chips are CMOS. CMOS have a lot of advantages, but one issue that remains to be seen is if this camcorder exhibits rolling shutter artifacts.

[arges03]

Some competition for the HVX... we all know what product competition means.. lower prices :) Especially with 16GB express cards priced at $200....

1/2" sensors in a handheld have been long wanted, same as the fuji lens. Too bad it can't do SD... I still get plenty of clients who want it.

I'm not crazy about MPEG2 or only 4:2:0 CS, but I'm sure this will be a dynamite camera for the price. Wonder what Canon/JVC have in store?

[mikkowilson]

http://www.ingenioustv.com/images/traingrab1.jpg
Ugh, interlaced.

- Mikko

[Huy Vu]

Some competition for the HVX... we all know what product competition means.. lower prices :) Especially with 16GB express cards priced at $200....

1/2" sensors in a handheld have been long wanted, same as the fuji lens. Too bad it can't do SD... I still get plenty of clients who want it.

I'm not crazy about MPEG2 or only 4:2:0 CS, but I'm sure this will be a dynamite camera for the price. Wonder what Canon/JVC have in store?

Where did you get that SxS card will go for $200? I don't think pricing has been announced yet and it won't even hit the street until the EX's release in US. The 16GB will go for at least twice that price I think.

[mjeppsen]

Lexar 4Gb Expresscard - $59 @ Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000PK1RAC/104-5456689-8231127?ie=UTF8&tag=freshdv-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B000PK1RAC)
Lexar 16Gb Expresscard - $205 @ Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Lexar-EX16GB-431-16GB-Expresscard/dp/B000QRZUQQ/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-5456689-8231127?ie=UTF8&tag=freshdv-20&s=electronics&qid=1189119736&sr=1-1)

[mikkowilson]

Those are Expresscards ... you are making the assumption that they work as recording media and that the SxS format Sony just developed isn't really that all special and necesarry to record to.

Not saying it's an incorrect assumption, just pointing out that it is an assumption. We should know tommorrow.

- Mikko

[mjeppsen]

Good point...just dug up a user review of the Lexar cards (http://www.notebooks.com/2007/05/02/review-lexar-expresscard-ssd/), it looks like write speed will be an issue.

[Barry_Green]

The SxS card prices have been announced. 8GB = 400 Euros ($550), 16GB = 700 Euros ($950).
http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_GB&contentId=1187079486292&sectiontype=PressRelease

The brochure that's been posted makes no mention of it being able to record to any media other than SxS Pro cards. Instead, the press release seems to imply that only SxS Pro cards can be used: "The PMW-EX1 is a highly compact, robust and high-performance camcorder that uniquely uses newly developed flash memory cards, the SxS PRO™, as its recording medium."

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_GB&contentId=1187079496418&sectiontype=PressRelease

[TimurCivan]

shocking.... i really though Sony was gonna make the cards the cheap variety..... VERY interesting.......

[David Jimerson]

Could be they didn't for all the same reasons as Panasonic's P2 not being just some PCMCIA memory card -- write speed, reliability, need for zero-defect . . .

[TimurCivan]

probably. so much for "off the shelf" Expresscards... same way P2's are "off the shelf" SD cards....

[mjeppsen]

Am I crazy, or did Sony originally tout the fact that you could use commodity Expresscard media?

[mikkowilson]

Nope. They touted that their media is compatible with Expresscard systems (readers), they have left it open to interpretation as to whether the camera will accept non-Sony non-SxS media.


- Mikko

[myCharlie]

I have come to learn that anything from Sony is not cheap. It may be more reliable but certainly not cheap.

By looking at the links provided above, is it just me or the transfer speed of the "ultra fast memory card" is still much lower than an eSATA connection used in the Red One camera. I like th compact and reliability of solid state memory card but I was surprise at the transfer speed of a 16GB for nearly one thousand dollars.

[SPZ]

But one thing is for sure: This will bring P2 prices down. It will be comercial suicide to make the 16 gb still at 900 USD, with the express card at 700. The same goes to the upcoming 32gb -900 dollars maximum.

[David Jimerson]

But one thing is for sure: This will bring P2 prices down. It will be comercial suicide to make the 16 gb still at 900 USD, with the express card at 700. The same goes to the upcoming 32gb -900 dollars maximum.

Where do you see the 16 GB SxS card for $700 US?

[Barry_Green]

But one thing is for sure: This will bring P2 prices down. It will be comercial suicide to make the 16 gb still at 900 USD, with the express card at 700. The same goes to the upcoming 32gb -900 dollars maximum.
The 16GB SxS is 700 Euros, not 700 dollars. 700 Euros = 950 US dollars. Or, based on the limited information we have now, SxS cards appear to be more expensive than P2 cards.

[Grug]

Argh! So they have pretty much gone with a proprietary system, and one that's just as expensive as P2... not happy Sony! I suppose the fact that they're selling the cameras with one 8Gb card included helps, but I'm still disappointed about this - it would have been better if they'd clearly stated that the camera would use a proprietary system in the first place, at least then people like me wouldn't have been dissappointed when they broke the news. Oh well, some competition is better than none I suppose. I'm keen to see how well it handles low-light.

Full 1920x1080 is pretty interesting, I wonder if FCP will support it.

[mjeppsen]

I don't know if FCP has specific full-raster support for XDCAM timelines, but with the open timeline and the option to select ProRes 422 as a render codec (a codec specifically made for 1920 material), I don't think 1920x1080 will be an issue.

[SPZ]

Where do you see the 16 GB SxS card for $700 US?

Sorry, my mistake. Didn't check the currency.

[harddrive]

The SxS card prices have been announced. 8GB = 400 Euros ($550), 16GB = 700 Euros ($950).
http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_GB&contentId=1187079486292&sectiontype=PressRelease
Amongst all the cost/GB talk, what may be irrelevant to some but crucial to others is that they are starting a range of card sizes, whereas 8GB P2 is being discontinued. 8GB corresponds to about 30min of DV at 25Mbs, and at the moment I can think of a whole raft of work that currently is best suited to 30 minute tapes. Having the option to buy two 8GB cards for not much more than the price of a single 16GB card can be extremely valuable for some users.

Also be interesting to see what the on the road prices are.
The brochure that's been posted makes no mention of it being able to record to any media other than SxS Pro cards.
I've heard that media HAS been successfully recorded to a regular card, though with an issue of error messages getting thrown up. Apparently it was an early prototype, and may be a bit dangerous to draw too many conclusions either way yet - the user had a lot to do with the camera and not much time. But it's certainly too early to definitively say production models won't be able to use the cheaper media.

[Pancrasex]

From IBC Daily news :
Timing its entry into solid state to coincide with the arrival of cheaper more versatile media, Sony has put an aggressive launch price of EUR6,500 on its first XDCAM EX camcorder, the PMW-EX1 HD Handycam. Shipping in November in tandem with a USB reader/writer, and followed by the (prototype) viewing deck seen here at the show, the EX format uses ExpressCard technology that will give users a transfer speed of 800Mbps, writes George Jarrett.

6,500 euros is roughly around 9k US, in which officially drops all excitement for the EX from my behalf.

LINK: http://www.ibc.org/cgi-bin/enews_cms.cgi?story_no=64&issue=8

[LuckyStudio 13]

http://www.film-tv-video.de/newsdetail+M5e5b57791bf.html?&tx_ttnews%5Bday%5D=07&tx_ttnews%5Bmonth%5D=09&tx_ttnews%5Byear%5D=2007


Language conversion (babble fish) needed. If the EX uses proprietary SXS card, that is the deal breaker. It is not solid enough, especially having SOny track record with their products (Betamax VCR, ATRAC ...etc), and their full commitment to optical disc for their ENG cameras. At least Panasonic uses the same P2 technology in all their ENG and higher end camera, so you would know p2 will stay on for a looooong time.

[Barry_Green]

According to Mikko live at IBC, the Sony rep there confirmed that yes it is exclusive to SxS.

He also points out that the EX1 exhibits some "wobble". If you want him to ask any specific questions, send him a message and keep track of his live feed at ibc.mikkowilson.com. He's our "man on the street" out there, and he's doing live reporting for us right from the show floor via text messages from his cell phone and uploading pictures live too.

[harddrive]

The 16GB SxS is 700 Euros, not 700 dollars. 700 Euros = 950 US dollars. Or, based on the limited information we have now, SxS cards appear to be more expensive than P2 cards.
Best information I've had is that the 16GB cards are likely to be around £400 - http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_item_cat.php?catalogue_number=sony_pmw-ex1 . Which translates to about $811, though a lot depends whether that's a tax inclusive or exclusive price.

It's also important not to confuse European pricing with US pricing. We traditionally suffer a big markup in actual terms compared to the US, so even if it did sell for about $800 (£400) in the UK, it's likely to be substantially less in the US.

As an example look at prices on the same site for P2 cards - £489 ex tax for a 16GB P2, or virtually $1,000. Even assuming the worst possible case (SxS cards are £400 plus tax), that would still mean that P2 has a 20-25% premium over SxS. And for a given size card, the EX will record 3x as many minutes.

[Jason Ramsey]

In my (limited experience) comparing overseas prices with u.s. prices for cameras and gear... panasonics tend to be more expensive overseas, but for sony gear the prices are usually comparable. At least between the u.s. and Asian countries. Speculation on my part though, which is all it all is until they release a price list of course.

Jason

[TimurCivan]

XDcam is still HDV... just more of it.... thats killing me. if it were 35mbps AVC hd, ok maybe...

[Barry_Green]

But it's not XDCAM HD, it's a new format. XDCAM HD is 35 megabits of 1440x1080 @ 4:2:0. This new camera is 35 megabits of 1920x1080 @ 4:2:0. Same bandwidth, but 33% more information being crammed into that bandwidth, which may mean it's more prone to artifacting than XDCAM-HD is.

[harddrive]

comparing overseas prices with u.s. prices for cameras and gear... .......... for sony gear the prices are usually comparable. At least between the u.s. and Asian countries.
I've just come back from the States and took the opportunity to check prices on Sony computers. They at least are SUBSTANTIALLY cheaper there than the same models in the UK (and probably the rest of Europe) - I can't comment on Asian prices. As far most other electronic goods go, it seemed a pretty similar story.

If the SxS cards do turn out to be about $950 list price equivalent in the European market, I'd expect them to be around $600-650 street in the US.

If re-equipment does take me down the SxS route, the savings may subsidise another US holiday! :)

[LuckyStudio 13]

Another lengthy review here http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=171

WE all wait for the SONY US press release. Right now the EX seems to be heading the wrong direction.

[Kholi]

So about 10k? Errr... That better be one very nice 24p image.

[adkimery]

So about 10k? Errr... That better be one very nice 24p image.
This post at dvinfo.net (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=103089) puts the price under $7k USD for the camera plus 2 8gig cards.


-A

[LuckyStudio 13]

$7k with 2x 8 gig SxS will put it roughly in the same range as the HVX200. This is going to be really really interesting.

[Huy Vu]

Another lengthy review here http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=171

WE all wait for the SONY US press release. Right now the EX seems to be heading the wrong direction.

Wrong direction? Are you sure this isn't a typo? Every thing so far sounds perfect.

One thing I would like to know though is whether the EX maintains full resolution when in under/overcrank mode. The shoulder mounted XDCAM loses half its vertical resolution when in this mode, hopefully the EX won't.

Only issue that remains seems to be pricing. If the camera is comparable to to HVX in pricing and SxS goes for lower than P2, the HVX will finally have a serious competitor.

[Joe Lawry]

One thing I would like to know though is whether the EX maintains full resolution when in under/overcrank mode. The shoulder mounted XDCAM loses half its vertical resolution when in this mode, hopefully the EX won't.
.

The ex shoots 1 to 60 at 720, and only 1 to 30 in 1080.. so no vertical resolution is lost with those huge ccds

What i want to know is if they are really that big.. they may say they record 1920.. but im still not sure...

[LuckyStudio 13]

B&H has the XDCAM EX at $ 7499. No mention of free SxS cards yet. pretty sure , more info will come out from Sony US next week.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/520761-REG/Sony_PMWEX1_PMW_EX1_XDCAM_EX_HD_CAMCORDER.html

[TimurCivan]

ithink it does do the whole 1920 X 1080 native. i wonder what its sensitivity is like. probabaly close to the Z1

[SPZ]

Not worth upgradding vs the HVX. The New HDV cameras with interchangeable lenses and HDSDI out + the new Flash Recorder that can record to CF cards the XDCAM HD 50mbps 4:2:2 format are a much more appealing solution...

Or a HPX with the CF Flash recorder..

Or, better yet, a RED...

[TimurCivan]

either way it will be a great camera for broadcast stuff. depending on its codec implimentaion and artifacting, it can be great for filmmaking too. i for one am excited by it.

[William_Robinette]

If it is the exact same as 35mbit XDcam-HD then it will hold up very well. I have done some shooting with the 350 and will say that on paper the codec isn't great, but it practice it is wonderful.

[TimurCivan]

its gonna be different. its actually rasterizing 1920x1080, so the compression is gona be a bit more severe.

"Some people accuse me of flying the Sony flag a bit too often, but I have good reason to. Sony just get it right time and time again, not only with camcorders and high end production gear, but with hi-fi, studio recording equipment, DVD players etc."

From this article...... http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=171

:huh:

The machine sounds great, but this sounds liek the FIRST good machine since the PD170.... Hell if the footage is good eough, imma have a new pony in the stable.....

[harddrive]

its gonna be different. its actually rasterizing 1920x1080, so the compression is gona be a bit more severe.
A post on another forum indicates this may not be so. The explanation being that it's 35Mbs VBR - so ramps the data rate up as required for higher motion etc - it's not 35Mbs all the time. The theory then is that the 1920x1080 raster will cause a higher AVERAGE bitrate, though the peak won't go above 35Mbs.

I don't know enough to confirm or deny it, but it's an interesting theory. Any comments?

There's lot to like about this camera - and the true manual lens must be one of the biggest pluses. Personally, I'm very surprised that it seems it can't record SD DV to the cards, and to me this is one of it's biggest negative points. If all your work is HD, it obviously won't be a problem.

[TimurCivan]

you'd be surprised how much i shoot DV and DVCpro50 for clients. IF it had "Digibeta" built in that would be somethign special.

[Barry_Green]

There's no standard-def at all, according to Mikko's IBC report.

[mikkowilson]

Ok, I finally got a bit more time with the Sony guys. In all simplicty, here's what I found:

Barry is right, there is no SD in the EX1 at all .. it's all HD only.
You have 2 choices of HD:
There "SP" mode, which is normal sony 25mbps HDV, 1080i only (1440x1080) . Camera outputs available are HD/SD-SDI, Component, Composite, S-video and HDV (through an IEEE1394 iLink connector). The HDV is totally standard HDV, so in this mode, you can output it out to any regular HDV device, like the DR60 Hard Drive Recorder or a Laptop, etc..
Then there's "HQ" mode, which is the brand new 35mbps XDCAM-EX format (not the same as XDCAM-HD). It can shoot at 1080i and at 1080p using the whole sensor at a native 1920x1080 (and recording this whoel signal), it can also shoot all your normal 720p formats (in both "PAL" and "NTSC" framrates). The HDV output is not available in this mode, so it's SDI, or recoding to SxS and moving it as data later.

The camera can not cross-convert between formats.

Ok, so it shoots all the normal framerates to XDCAM-EX, what about off-speed shooting for over & under cranking?
Well, the cool thing is that you can shoot at any framerate (in 1-frame increments) from 1fps to 30fps in 1080p mode, and from 1fps, all the way to 60fps in 720p mode. You can't change speeds on the fly (so no ramping), but setting the shooting rate is very simple. Of course the data-rate to the cards varies with shooting speed.
BUT there is a catch, and this is a HUGE catch for me as a Steadicam operator, and for many others too.. As soon as you change to a "non-standard" framerate, ALL the live outpus of the camera become inactive. Meaning that the ONLY way to monitor during off-speed shooting, is by using the camera's own LCD or EVF. This is a shame, as it really hurts the abiltiy to shoot a lot of stuff off-speed as you have no options for external monitoring.

Ok, the lens is really very good. They have put a lot of effort into the lens, which does show. But your oprtions or external control are VERY small. The camera has a new (as of yet, unnamed) proprietery lens control connector. The conenctor can control Zoom, Start-Stop, and the "Clip Review" funtion, and that's it. The connector by itseld is prety useless, you have to buy an adapter cable from sony to adapte the lens to a standard (Canon, or Fijinun) lens connector, then just add you favorate Professional lens controller and you are set..

Ok, back to formats a little: the camera comes with software for both the PC and the Mac platforms that you use to "ingest" the media and convert it for your use.
If you shot in HDV, than just use the normal established connection. If you shot in XDCAM.EX, then you will need to keep your ringers crossesd that an NLE manufacturer will have come forwards with plans to provide XDCAM-EX support; currently no one has announced that they plan to supporet it.

The unit is slated with a European list price of €6500, with cards slated to sell for €700 and €400 for the 16GB and the 8GB cards, respectivly.

The camera weighs 2.5kg (5.5lbs)

Because of the beefy lens' power requirements, the camera is a 12v camera, adn can be run form wither one of it's batter,es or by plugging in your charger and seeing it it wokds.

[William_Robinette]

The unit is slated with a US list price of $3600

That seems really low. Typo possibly?

[THoff]

If you shot in HDV, than just use the normal established connection. If you shot in XDCAM.EX, then you will need to keep your ringers crossesd that an NLE manufacturer will have come forwards with plans to provide XDCAM-EX support; currently no one has announced that they plan to supporet it.From Studio Daily:
Sony also announced that several nonlinear editing manufacturers—Adobe, Apple, Canopus, Dayang, Main Concept, New Auto, Sobey, Sony Creative Software's Vegas, and Sony’s XPRI NS—are developing compatible interfaces. Both the XDCAM EX camera and SxS flash memory cards are expected to be available in late 2007. Sony says the estimated pricing of the XDCAM EX will be under $8,000.

[LuckyStudio 13]

The cam has a street price of $7499 from b&h

[whachusay]

You can't change speeds on the fly (so no ramping), but setting the shooting rate is very simple.
.
Can you change speeds on the fly with the HVX?

[Jason Ramsey]

No you can't. You have to stop recording with the HVX as well.

Jason

[mikkowilson]

That seems really low. Typo possibly?

Ugh, sorry guys, not sure which of my notes I was reading. The camera is MSRP €6500 in Europe.

I was literally falling asleep as I typed that post yesterday, agian my apologies.

- Mikko

[mikkowilson]

Regarding the editor compatibilty. It *sounds* like there are multiple companies propabaly workgin on solutions, but the Reps at the show can't comment on any future releases or developments. So at this time, there is no *comfirmed* support that I or the rep I spoke to knows of. He said "[when the camera ships in November, then we will know [which editors support XDCAM-EX then]]" which of course doesn't really tell you much.





Also someone asked me about the off-speed shooting; I understand it works normally to the SxS cards directly, so it's not just a "burst" mode into a buffer.

- Mikko

[William_Robinette]

Well, I think we can be fairly certain that Vegas 8 will support it. If not initially, then in a 8.0b release.

[Joe Lawry]

BUT there is a catch, and this is a HUGE catch for me as a Steadicam operator, and for many others too.. As soon as you change to a "non-standard" framerate, ALL the live outpus of the camera become inactive. Meaning that the ONLY way to monitor during off-speed shooting, is by using the camera's own LCD or EVF. This is a shame, as it really hurts the abiltiy to shoot a lot of stuff off-speed as you have no options for external monitoring.


Wow,, thats terrible.. i guess the lcd is high quality but its not the same as focusing the camera with an hd monitor for over cranking..

Is this something that could be fixed with a firmware update?

[harddrive]

Mikko - any news from the Sony guys about future SxS cameras in the pipeline, ideally 2/3" shouldermount?

Or for that matter about the 2/3" HD-XDCAM first mentioned at NAB?

Euro 6500 equates to about US$8,950, so according to that B&H report of $7,499 it will be substantially cheaper in the US.

If 16GB cards are Euro700, that's equivalent to $963. If the same Europe/US pricing ratios hold, that predicts about $800 in the US - maybe cheaper on the road.

[Simon Wyndham]

Here is my appraisal so far (guys, I have RSS too :-) )

http://www.simonwyndham.co.uk/xdcam-pmw-ex1.html

Ignore my comments about card pricing. Not good that they are as expensive as they are. But I think prices will come down a lot very soon mainly because the SxS cards will eventually be made by Sandisc and other companies.

[androbot2084]

Finally we have a Sony camera that meets the original International Telecommunications Union specifications for high definition namely that a high definition camera must have better temporal resolution than standard definition. Since this Sony can output 50 and 60 complete frames per second in the 720p mode we finnaly have a camera capable of real high definition without haveing to resort to grandfather clauses in the ITU specifications.

[harddrive]

Here is my appraisal so far.
Thanks Simon. There's a lot good about this camera - the lens and chips being maybe the most obvious.

I was already prepared for not expecting it to be good handheld (which you seem to confirm), but the biggest drawback to many of us is possibly the lack of Standard Definition capability recorded to card. (Ideally as DV or 50Mb IMX.)
Did you get the chance to say anything to Sony about that, or get any sort of reason?

And to repeat the question posed to Mikko - any word of further SxS products from IBC?

[cckid]

Hi,

I was on the verge of buying the hvx-200 in the next couple of days....but now I am not sure anymore...the lense, the iris, the chips and the downcranking is great...but can't beleive that there's not a dvcam or dv option in the settings...that just sucks...because we still in a sd world despite we have great hd cameras out there....sony please don't mess a good product...and add an sd option to this camera and you'll have a winner...or at least a i-link downconwert when grabing to the computer....don't make this stupid mistake of not adding this option....

and one more question...does anyone know how will the sgpro adapter conform to the 1/2 chips of this camera....will it work properly....

best regards

cckid

[Cees Mutsaers]

We have to wait for a side by side comparison with HVX200. Hopefully someone will do it in November.

Hi,

I was on the verge of buying the hvx-200 in the next couple of days....but now I am not sure anymore...the lense, the iris, the chips and the downcranking is great...but can't beleive that there's not a dvcam or dv option in the settings...that just sucks...because we still in a sd world despite we have great hd cameras out there....sony please don't mess a good product...and add an sd option to this camera and you'll have a winner...or at least a i-link downconwert when grabing to the computer....don't make this stupid mistake of not adding this option....

and one more question...does anyone know how will the sgpro adapter conform to the 1/2 chips of this camera....will it work properly....

best regards

cckid

[lec]

I tried the ex1 today. It looks very interesting but: it is less sensitive then the z1! It is almost 3 stops less then a Sony 970. For me that makes it useless for documentary shooting.. For this reason I often still use my DVX instead of my HVX, it is still a more sensitive camera.

[whachusay]

LEC- How is the LCD screen on it?

[Cees Mutsaers]

LCD on the EX is same quality as the one on the Z1 so very nice.

[mikkowilson]

Mikko - any news from the Sony guys about future SxS cameras in the pipeline, ideally 2/3" shouldermount?

I asked, they said simply "[we can't talk about the possibilty un-announced products]" The conversation cafe off that this is essentially a "pilot" camera, that depeding on how well it sells, then Sony will decide whether to actually developt the format (way to instill confidence in early adopters huh?).
Incidentally that's exactly the same resonse I got from Adobe today when I asked them about XDCAM-EX support. Adobe said "Untill the camera is shipping, and there is genuine demand for the codece to be supported, wer will concentrate on higher prioreties in the form of formats that are allready more widespread.

- Mikko

[harddrive]

I asked, they said simply "[we can't talk about the possibilty un-announced products]" The conversation cafe off that this is essentially a "pilot" camera, that depeding on how well it sells, then Sony will decide whether to actually developt the format (way to instill confidence in early adopters huh?).
Thanks - I was sort of expecting that. Best result would have been announcing a forthcoming product this IBC (as the EX at NAB), but no doubt we'd have heard about anything like that straightaway.

Which makes me wonder about development times. If they really do wait and see how it sells before even committing to develop a future camera, then it must be quite a while away.

Then again, at last IBC the same company was saying no to soid-state "for the foreseeable future". And how long was that before NAB.......? :)

[TimurCivan]

I will definitly Rent one, and try it out. im excited by the prospect of 1920X1080P native.....

[LuckyStudio 13]

Sony camera also has the history of steady continuous dropping down in price. The Z1 at B&H has dropped around $1900 since its launch day.

So, if you dont need it, you might want to wait for a few months and hope the price will drop down a bit.

[DavidChia]

It feels great, the weight of the camera and the feel of it's focus lens is just great. I spent about 1hour molesting the camera at the Sony booth. The Focus Ring has a stop function when it is on manual. the ris ring is also a great improvment, on more small dial. It is an actual ring on the lens.

The best part is that it is like the Z1 but better. It does PAL and NTSC, with frame rate from 1 to 60. 1080 and 720 HDV. And it about 6500euros says the sony rap. The 8gig cards about400euros and 16gig 750euros.

Looks like this is the next thing on my list instead of the HVX

[harddrive]

The best part is that it is like the Z1 but better. It does PAL and NTSC, ............
No it doesn't, and this lack of SD capability I consider the main drawback to the camera for many users. (And a disadvantage compared to the Z1.)

What is does seem to do are the 50 and 60Hz varieties of both 720 and 1080 HD (so it's suitable for use in both Europe and US/Japan), but "PAL" and "NTSC" refer specifically to Standard Definition.

[Simon Wyndham]

It looks very interesting but: it is less sensitive then the z1!

Wrong, quite simply. The EX is one stop more sensitive than the 350. The EX is rated as f10 compared to f9 for the 350 and f7 for the Z1. I can also confirm having used it that putting up the gain is also very low in noise.


Did you get the chance to say anything to Sony about that, or get any sort of reason?

I think their reasoning is that the footage will always be transferred as files to the computer rather than being streamed over firewire. And because NLE's are so good at down conversion these days editors might as well just choose the resolution at output if they require SD. That said I think it does do SD SDI. Though don't quote me on that.

[harddrive]

And because NLE's are so good at down conversion these days editors might as well just choose the resolution at output if they require SD.
Assuming the NLE can easily handle HD - it's quite probable that a user may want to upgrade their camera before the NLE. There is also the time taken to render, and it seems quite likely that the EX may find a place as second camera in a shoot which is otherwise SD. It would be far simpler (and save time) to just use it in SD mode for now, then switch to HD as the main production goes that way.

[PowerMac84]

LEC- How is the LCD screen on it?

It's a totally new developed LCD with increased resolution of 640 x 480! That's quite alot for modern cameras. Should be fairly usable for focussing - at least better than with it's predecessors like the Z1.

[TimurCivan]

Wrong, quite simply. The EX is one stop more sensitive than the 350. The EX is rated as f10 compared to f9 for the 350 and f7 for the Z1. I can also confirm having used it that putting up the gain is also very low in noise.


Can you make that an ISO appoximation? i dont undestant what F10 @ 2000 lux means in comarison to other cameras.

[soarprod]

HVX is F8 @ 2000 lux ~ 320iso. That should mean ~ 480 iso?

[Simon Wyndham]

The f-stop ratings of cameras can be pretty meaningless. But they do give a good idea if you know what another camera is capable of. For example the Z1 is rated at f7. When I get hold of the EX again I'll do the ISO calculation for you.

[Kenny_G]

"Wrong, quite simply. The EX is one stop more sensitive than the 350. The EX is rated as f10 compared to f9 for the 350 and f7 for the Z1. I can also confirm having used it that putting up the gain is also very low in noise."

What I have noticed is that when a camera is not performing very well in the "lux" area, it is not mentioned by the manufacturer.
A 1/2" sensor camera should be better than a 1/3" sensor one or not? Can you say that the EX is as sensitive to light as the PD170? If not, than IMHO it is a good camera, but not very attractive to documentary shooters.

[Simon Wyndham]

What I have noticed is that when a camera is not performing very well in the "lux" area, it is not mentioned by the manufacturer.

And if you look on the Sony site they give the lux rating of the EX very clearly. f10. One stop more sensitive than the F350, and 3 stops more sensitive than the Z1.

No the EX is not as sensitive as a PD170. Its a high definition camera. No 1080 high definition camera will currently match the best low light SD performers. If you expect it to do so then you need an SD camera, not a high definition one. All things being equal a 1/2" chip should be better than a 1/3" one. But in the case of the EX the chip has a full 1920x1080 raster which by its nature *should* reduce its low light abilities. But despite having a higher resolution than the F350, it is still one stop more sensitive.

The Z1, the HVX200, the V1, the DVX100 have ALL been used to make very good documentaries in all types of lighting situations. If you are shooting in such low light levels as to be pushing the camera to the limits of being able to see anything then you need to learn about lighting, or get an on camera light!!

Kenny G, do I recognise you as a troll from other forums? Your nickname sounds rather familiar. If not I apologise. But it is suspicious that you are a brand new member who is saying things like "What I have noticed is that when a camera is not performing very well in the "lux" area, it is not mentioned by the manufacturer." when it has just been pointed out to you exactly what the specifications are (and in fact you quoted that part just before you said it!)

[DavidChia]

I found the web brochure for this camera.

http://www.sony.com.au/objects/PDF/PDWEX1_Brochure.pdf

[cannes1979]

Can anybody confirm whether or not Sony will release a firmware update that will allow monitoring off-speed shooting on a separate monitor? As Mikko points out that would be a huge deal killer for steadicam/crane/remote work, not to mention there'd be some pissed off directors and producers hanging around video village...;)

[Alvise Tedesco]

HVX is F8 @ 2000 lux ~ 320iso. That should mean ~ 480 iso?

Ever knew HVX is rated 640 iso

BTW: Is there an EX frame grabbed and posted somewhere (a PROGRESSIVE one. I saw the steam train..) ?
Thanks

[TimurCivan]

the inability to monitor offspeed stuff is rediculous, thats probably just a Beta model glitch.. i think its IMPOSSIBLE for them to release a camera that cant monitor off speed stuff.. thats just ... insane if it goes out of the door like that. Esecially if youre doing 35 adpter work, stedicam, crane, or car mounted shots..... i just dont think It will be released that way.

Great news if its 1920x1080 and still faster than a HVX. thats GREAT news. I for one am excited, just hope it doesnt "wobble" with thoes Cmos sensors.

[LuckyStudio 13]

what I want to know is "WHEN THE $#@%@%#@#$ is SONY USA going to do a press release on this thing".

[mikkowilson]

I questioned the live outputs myself many times.
It appears that Sony's take is "There is no standard for that framerate, so we won't output a signal at all" I too hope that I'm wrong and that the final version will have some soft of live output at all times.

Timur, It does wobble, just not very much.

- Mikko

[Barry_Green]

just hope it doesnt "wobble" with thoes Cmos sensors.
Well, we already know it does; we just don't know how bad it does. Mikko said it was "slight".

[cannes1979]

Hey Barry,

Is this something that can be easily spotted on a 42" HD screen or this something that is small? Is it firmware fixable or this a product of engineering design? And lastly, besides whip pans, rickety hand held shots, fast action, and flashing lights, is there anything else a rolling shutter/cmos chip video camera can't handle well? :)

[Weston]

Even a "slight" wobble is bullshit.

[TimurCivan]

Well there goes, "handheld" shaky cam and high shutterspeed pans.....

its VERY visible. The top half of the screenmoves while the botom half doesnt... i will post an image of the effect. My cell phone camera does that. Had it been the other kind of sensor, like a CCD, the cables would have been straight, not wavy and looking like the bridge is collapsing.



http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/2750/1189557423.jpg

[Barry_Green]

Is this something that can be easily spotted on a 42" HD screen or this something that is small?
Let's be clear on something: I don't know the extent of the wobble on the EX1. I've seen it on the HV20 and it's extreme. I've seen it on the V1U and it's significant. I don't know how much is on the EX1. So I can talk about rolling shutter in general, but we don't know how much of that will or won't apply to the EX1.

Is it firmware fixable or this a product of engineering design?
It's part and parcel of the sensor design. There's nothing fixable about it unless they redesign the chip to somehow minimize it. There are two types of shutters that can be employed on a CMOS chip, a "global" or a "rolling" shutter. Nobody that I can think of does CMOS with a "global" shutter, but I sure wish they did! That's the way a CCD works. Instead, everyone that I can think of uses a "rolling" shutter (Sony, Canon, Infinity, Red, everyone). And they all have some manner or degree of wobble to them (and skew and partial exposure). But Red says they "were aware of the issues and they fixed them", so I don't know what that means exactly -- they haven't shared their design publicly, of course -- but perhaps it means multiple zones reading off at the same time or something.

In any case, wobble is inherent in the rolling shutter design, so if it uses a rolling shutter it's gonna wobble. I guess the question is how much? If it's an infitesimally small amount, and has no real bearing on the video, then it's a non-issue in my book (heck, CCDs have huge vertical smear on overexposed light sources and nobody seems to get hung up about that!)

And lastly, besides whip pans, rickety hand held shots, fast action, and flashing lights, is there anything else a rolling shutter/cmos chip video camera can't handle well? :)
The rolling shutter introduces certain artifacts into the imaging system. If your type of shooting is affected by those artifacts, then it's a problem. You have to understand the nature of the "wobble" to know whether it's going to be a problem or not in the type of footage you're shooting.

Personally, I'm not too worried about general skew. A little leaning left or right during a fast pan isn't much of a dealbreaker to me for most circumstances. But the stretching and shrinking issue is a problem. If you pan left or right you'll get leaning images, most everyone seems to know that. But what if you tilt up or down? Well, then you'll either get stretching (the whole image can get elongated as if it's being stretched out) or scrunched (smushed up so everyone looks like they're shorter) during the move. That's a problem. And now, if you combine the stretching and scrunching with the left leaning and the right leaning, now you understand where the "wobble" comes from.

So now you have to think about the circumstances you're going to put the camera in. If you're shooting locked-down interview shots, there's no motion of the sensor vs. the image, so there'll be no stretching or scrunching or skewing, so you've got no problem. Or if you're mounted on a tripod and executing a slow pan, so that the top of the image and the bottom of the image are exposed while still in reasonably the same position, you have no problem. But what if you put the camera in a situation where there's vibration? Where it moves up a tiny amount and down a tiny amount, and maybe tilts left or right just a little bit? Well, that's where you have a wholesale wobble disaster, as exemplified by Russ Andersson's helicopter footage. So if you're shooting footage with the camera mounted on a car, on a stickypod, on a cinesaddle, or on a helicopter or a boat, you might encounter a perfect storm for rolling-shutter problems. (or maybe you won't -- maybe that particular camera has been optimized to be able to handle that -- but on the HV20 it definitely happens.)

So whip-pans, I'm not worried about. Shaky handheld footage -- well, actually, yes, that's a problem because that style has been "in vogue" for a while. If you want to shoot your own "Bourne Supremacy" type of film, a rolling shutter cam may very well be the wrong tool for that job.

But the two worst scenarios are the ones where I think people will get bitten the worst, because they're perfectly reasonable shooting scenarios and there's no reason to think that the camera wouldn't be able to cope. The first would be things like wedding receptions or news conferences. Even if you've got the camera perfectly steady on a tripod, so no motion is induced, a bright flash will only get exposed on part of the frame. If it only happens once you might be okay with it, but if several flashes go off, it can look really gnarly.

The other is if you shoot under any sort of strobelight or flickering light. Let's say you shoot at 1/48th shutter under some older fluorescent lights... in that case, you'll see vertical scrolling bars of off-color orange nastiness scrolling up your screen! That's bad, and that's something that old-school shooters won't be prepared for and won't understand what happened. But it happens in a rolling shutter because the rolling shutter exposes different parts of the frame at different times, and the fluorescent light is cycling while that shutter's exposing -- so parts of the frame will be exposed when the light is at its brightest, and other parts when the light is at its dimmest. So you'll get color-changing scrolling bands appearing all throughout your video, in a scenario where you otherwise wouldn't expect anything bad to happen. (a modern high-frequency ballast will avoid this, but I wonder how older magnetic-ballast HMI lights will do?)

And of course there's the potential issues with motion tracking -- if the image is changing shape and stretching and shrinking during a normal move, how can composited graphics elements expect to keep up?

Rolling shutter is something that we as shooters are going to have to be acutely aware of. If the manufacturers can somehow overcome all these issues, then hopefully someday we can go back to blissfully ignoring all this. But until then, I've heard confirmation that the Infinity, the Red, the EX1, the V1U, the HV20, and the small Sony cameras all exhibit this rolling shutter effect (to greater or lesser extent). So it's something any new buyer would do very well to educate themselves on. It doesn't have to mean that "rolling shutter = dealbreaker", but for some particular uses it may mean exactly that. For others it'll be a non-issue. But you would be wise to learn what the effects are, so you know whether your camera can cope with what you're throwing at it.

[LuckyStudio 13]

The initial $7499 price on B&H website is now removed and changed to TBA. I HOPE THE FINAL CAMERA IS GOING TO BE CHEAPER THAN $7499.

I cannot wait till SONY USA do a press release on this camera.

[Barry_Green]

haven't seen one yet, but you can keep track of their current press releases at http://news.sel.sony.com/en

[mikkowilson]

Ok, a bit of clarification..

The "wobble" I witnessed in all these cameras I tested at IBC (EX1, RED, Infinity) was very very slight. They where all set up on tripods in a trade show environment, all being presented on a 20-something inch HD monitor.

I moved them as much as I possibly could - mostly whip panning. The most I ever saw from any of the cameras was a slight skew during the fastest of whips. The effect was marginal and definitely not noticeable ... I was of course particularly looking for it.

So it doesn't seem that bad.

But as Barry mentioned there are other situations where these problems can appear. Obviously I couldn't test with shaky handheld of with vehicle vibration. And as I couldn't record, I couldn't test camera flashes either.

So, yes, all 3 of the cameras I tested do use a rolling shutter. That we know because I was able to generate *some* wobble, that wasn't really a problem. Will it be a problem with other settings in different shooting environments? We really don't know until we see the cameras put into those situations.


Small side note: There is plenty of vibration and movement (don't know how much was added in post) in the shots in Crossing the Line, and though I looked very carefully during the screening at IBC, I didn't notice any wobble there. So this could be a non issue for any/all of these cameras.

- Mikko

[moldcad]

HDV is totally standard HDV, so in this mode, you can output it out to any regular HDV device, like the DR60 Hard Drive

Fine - I'll be able to use my DR60 with it! Did you notice whether it can record to firewire without an SxS card, just like the V1 without a tape?

Ok, the lens is really very good. They have put a lot of effort into the lens, which does show. But your oprtions or external control are VERY small. The camera has a new (as of yet, unnamed) proprietery lens control connector. The conenctor can control Zoom, Start-Stop, and the "Clip Review" funtion, and that's it. The connector by itseld is prety useless, you have to buy an adapter cable from sony to adapte the lens to a standard (Canon, or Fijinun) lens connector, then just add you favorate Professional lens controller and you are set..

Mikko, why would they use a proprietary adapter cable, if all you can connect is a Canon/Fujinon len controller type, anyway? Perhpas the adapter can accept also other controller genres, like LANC (hopefully)? Or, another adapter exists for that...



The camera weighs 3.5kg (5.5lbs). Because of the beefy lens' power requirements, the camera is a 12v camera, adn can be run form wither one of it's batter,es or by plugging in your charger and seeing it it wokds.

Are you sure there is no typo here? It's said to be 2.4kg net in the brochure - add the big battery, lens hood and a card, and it should be some 2.8kg; but 3.5kg?!!

[mikkowilson]

Yeah, that's a typo. 2.5kg

Don't know if it needs a SxS card to record HDV out .. I doubt it.

I have no idea why they went with a proprietery lens control connector (I was expecting a standard Fujinon to be honest). But nope, it's their own lens connector that they haven't even got a name for yet. (Heh, yeah, Sony is making new "standards" faster than they can come up with names for them!)
I didn't see or hear any mention of LANC .. I seriously doubt its there.


In general; connectivity and compatibilty on this camera is really really weak.

- Mikko

[alpi69]

At NAB time I was excited about this cam, but the more I read the less it appeals.
I was especially interested in the XDCam standard, because many clients here have XDCam readers on their machines.

It doesn´t shoot SD, which is often needed still? Weird, but not a major deal, because NLEs can downconvert on the fly anyway.

Is the XDCam then XDCam standard or not? Can I copy it to the XDCam-disc and will it then be read by all NLEs that support XDCam or do I need plugins for them (esp. AVID). If this is not standard XDcam the cam limited again. I might just as well stick to P2 and transfer from P2 to XDCam.

CMOS will be tested. As an owner of the HVX200 I surely will first wait for a workflow and reviews before jumping to it. After all the HVX makes amazing images itself ;-)

[harddrive]

Ok, a bit of clarification..

The "wobble" I witnessed in all these cameras I tested at IBC (EX1, RED, Infinity) was very very slight.
How did the wobble compare between those three - was the EX1 noticeably more than Red or Infinity, for example? If not, that's pretty impressive, given the difference in price.

It's different to comment too much until I've had the chance to see for myself, but ALL camera design is a matter of compromise. My initial feeling is that the advantages of these sensors (sensitivity, dynamic range etc) far more than outweigh their disadvantages.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Taken from another report from another site (credit to Emmanuel Plakiotis

The sensor is native 1920X1080 not 1440X1080. That means that this is a better sensor than the ones found on the 335 and 355(these upgraded models can handle the dual layered double capacity XDCAM discs).

Recording formats: 1080i 50/60 and 24/25p AND 720p 50/60.

NO SD recording.

In 1080 there are two modes HQ which records the full 1920X1080 and normal which records 1440X1080 as the rest of the XDCAM line. The wrapper is different than normal XDCAM (its not MXF) and needs transcoding.
35mbit 420 Mpeg XDCAM HD and 25Mbit 420 Mpeg HDV
Firewire out for file transfer and HDV out no 35mbit XDCAM Out.

It’s PAL/NTSC switchable.

Has a really neat on screen menu and most of the basic functions are adjusted very easily without the need to go to submenus.

The lens is manual/auto switchable and when in manual has end stops and markings. When in auto focus you can manually override without having to switch to manual.

The grip is adjustable rotating 90 degrees.

HD SDI out carries audio signal.

There is an introductory price Euro 6500 with two 8Gb cards. Then the same price will include only one 8Gb card. Expect the same figure in US dollars.

Card reader with two slots around Euro300, but you can copy from EX through firewire or put the cards straight to laptop if compatible.

The cards from other manufacturers (besides Sony and Sandisc) will probably work but are not officially endorsed.

There is a new XDCAM drive costing Euro 2500 which initially can play out XDCAM/HDXDCAM and within 6 months will also record XDCAM/HDXDCAM with software update. Very useful and economical for use with NLE or archiving.

The LCD screen hides under the handle and doesn't block the buttons on top of it.

European release is scheduled for mid November.

Irrelevant but noteworthy:
The EBU (European broadcasting union) after extensive tests has concluded that 720p 50fps 50hz looks better than 1080i 25fps 50hz and urges the European broadcasters to adopt the 720p 50fps initially and upgrade to 1080p 50fps when feasible.

[Barry_Green]

Is the XDCam then XDCam standard or not?
No, it's a little different. It's a new compression format called XDCAM EX.

XDCAM-HD = 1440x1080, in an MXF wrapper
XDCAM-EX = 1920x1080, in an MP4 wrapper

Can I copy it to the XDCam-disc and will it then be read by all NLEs that support XDCam
No, the NLEs will need to be updated to handle the new format. EDIUS is claiming they'll be ready on day one.

[zeke]

Sony Vegas 8 Pro should handle the files.
I heard they switched to mp4 wrapper to make it easier for Premier to use it.
Adobe never added built in support for mxf format.

[Barry_Green]

Premiere has built-in MXF support for the Op-Atom standard (used by Thomson, Grass Valley, Panasonic, etc) in the next version of CS3. I would assume it also has MXF support for the Sony system (Sony uses their own version of MXF).

But, then again, Adobe said that supporting EX was no big priority for them, so it remains to be seen. If Sony has made a move to make their system more compatible with NLEs, that's a good sign.

[videodan]

A quick question about the CMOS "rolling shutter" issue. Does it affect interlaced, progressive, or both? I'm planning an upgrade from FX1 to the EX1 for underwater and topside shooting, and "wobble" has me concerned. Will a school of fish swimming by be distorted if panning at the same time? I realize that the EX1 production cameras have not been released yet, so I'm hoping this will not be an issue. Thanks.
Dan

[Barry_Green]

We don't know how much the issue may effect the EX1. It might be negligible.

But to the degree that it's affected, it's affected in all scanning modes. Progressive or interlaced doesn't matter, but what does appear to matter is the frame rate. In general, rolling shutter effects are more detectable at slower frame rates. So 24p will show more rulling shutter effect than 60i would. At 60p vs. 60i, it really should be a wash as far as rolling shutter artifacts; they should be equal (but then again you'd have 60i interlace to contend with if you went 60i).

[videodan]

Thanks Barry, that helps. I will almost exclusively be shooting the higher frame rates of 1080i60, 1080p30, and 720p60. As far as interlace vs. progressive, I like them both. Shooting progressive will be new for me.
Dan

[LuckyStudio 13]

more info

http://www.xdcamuser.co.uk/ex-series.php

[LuckyStudio 13]

a youtube video on the xdcam ex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUge2UB4HwA

[alpi69]

thanks Barry. So this new wrapper will start the NLE-compatibility nightmare all over.

I guess I will stay 720p in the HVX for another year and wait for Panas answer.
At least the P2 prices will drop more now.

[Barry_Green]

So this new wrapper will start the NLE-compatibility nightmare all over.

I'm not prepared to say that at all. I don't know what the impact will be. I would expect that Sony Vegas will have highly integrated support on day one. Don't know about the others, except that Mikko reported that Premiere said it wasn't any big priority item for them.

[Jason Ramsey]

I don't know if p2 prices would drop as a result, since the retail of 16gig p2 and 16gig SxS are both 900 bucks. But, if the EX is successful, then maybe that will put downward pressure...

Jason

[mikkowilson]

Yeah, Adobe said that they wait untill a format becomes popular enough first, and then begins development .. sort of how Canon made the XL1 ... so I don't expect any XDCAM-EX support form them any time soon.

I think this will affect P2 a little ... the cost of the cards is the same, but the SxS cards hold more time-wise (be it by high compression) which is a factor when comparing to P2.

- Mikko

[TimurCivan]

i love its square end section... like the bigger Cine Alta series... Its like the mini version.

[Simon Wyndham]

The SxS price is a bit of a downer. The saga goes on.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Like i said before Sony really has a secret "anti-climax" for every single cam that they sell. :(

I had high hopes for this cam when it was first announced. As with everything Sony proprietary, PSP disc, ATRAC ...etc, once the sales numbers are not impressive enough, Sony might drop the format altogether, especially since their higher end ENG cams are all using again *their proprietary DISC format.

At least you know Panasonic is not going to abandon P2 since their higher end ENG cams are all switching to P2.

Thank you Sony once again. Even Canon hit the home run with their XH-A1, yet SOny striked out with the Z1, V1 and now the XDCAM EX.

[TimurCivan]

well they havent struck out yet.... Dont be too hasty. The image may be Miraculous, and worth the headache of XDcam, proprietary or not.

Though im ust admit sony's MicroMV tape idea was novel, but not usefull for anything as it required twice the compression to get it to a DVD. its like HDV, but for standard def, and it failed miserably.

[Huy Vu]

Thank you Sony once again. Even Canon hit the home run with their XH-A1, yet SOny striked out with the Z1, V1 and now the XDCAM EX.

How do you know that? It hasn't even hit the street yet. All we have is speculations based on first impressions. Weren't there negative predictions about P2 when it was first announced? From what I've read so far there's no "dealbreaker" for me on the EX. It actually seems like Sony might actually be "getting it" with this camera with all these nifty features (variable frame rates, solid state, finally!). But then I have no idea how this is going to go over with filmmakers or if the price is going to be right or even if there's some crippling bug that hasn't come out yet.

And what do you mean "strike out"? From what I heard the Z1 sold very well.

[TimurCivan]

i jsut hope they resolve teh monitoring issue with variframerates.

[zeke]

If the wobble issue turns out to be a red herring, I'll probably get one. Mainly for the uncompressed SDI out. I was looking at the JVC HD250 (I own the HD100) but the JVC is more expensive even without a lens. The EX is very attractive for low budget movie makers.

[LuckyStudio 13]

What speculation ? One of the main advantage of this EX is the promise of cheaper "rec time" via the use of generic Express Card. Now go and see the announced prices of the PROPRIETARY SxS cards.

Z1 is fine if you shoot 100% interlaced. Their "cine emulation" is truly a piece of crap. I know, my friend's studio that I sometimes shoots for, owns 3x Z1u.

The specs looks great, but again so did the specs on the Sony V1u when it was announced.

Dont get me wrong, I was really hoping to buy my FIRST Sony cam after I heard of the EX but now I am not so convinved anymore. And i wonder why the $@#$@#@$# does Sony USA have not yet made a press conference/release on this cam.


All we have is speculations based on first impressions. Weren't there negative predictions about P2 when it was first announced? From what I've read so far there's no "dealbreaker" for me on the EX. It actually seems like Sony might actually be "getting it" with this camera with all these nifty features (variable frame rates, solid state, finally!).

And what do you mean "strike out"? From what I heard the Z1 sold very well.

[harddrive]

Like i said before Sony really has a secret "anti-climax" for every single cam that they sell. :(
Great quote! Though to me it's the lack of SD compatability that makes me think "why oh why did they do that!?"
I had high hopes for this cam when it was first announced. ...........Sony might drop the format altogether, especially since their higher end ENG cams are all using again *their proprietary DISC format.
I expect the opposite to happen - SxS being built in to the higher end cameras. I remember hearing Sony say a few years ago that they would always keep an open mind about solid state, but didn't think the time was right for it *then*. Obviously they now think the time may be coming, and personally I think they got their timing right - they've sold a lot of tape and disc cameras in that time, but it may now be time to move on. (And in the pro market I suspect Panasonic have also sold a lot more tape cameras than P2 in the same timeframe.)

Sonys announcement at NAB suggested that disc and solid state would live together for quite a while to come, and to me that is much more useful than a solid state only solution - sometimes you just need to hand over a hard copy of material.

[Huy Vu]

What speculation ? One of the main advantage of this EX is the promise of cheaper "rec time" via the use of generic Express Card. Now go and see the announced prices of the PROPRIETARY SxS cards.



What announced price? Some unconfirmed report that said we should "expect" around the same price in the US as in Europe? The price for the camera isn't even announced yet. And I believe some where on this thread there's a post that the generic Express card should work but is not officially supported. They may work, they may not, but until then it is speculation to assume that they won't and that card prices will be high. And yes, it is "cheaper" in the sense that you get a lot more recording time per GB.

I also read that Sony is including 2x 8GB cards with the camera. That makes what, an hour of recording right out of the box?

[rawfa]

Another lengthy review here http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=171

WE all wait for the SONY US press release. Right now the EX seems to be heading the wrong direction.


Did anyone read this? According to the author this camera is something truly amazing. I'm really looking forward to seeing the first footage.

Quote:

"Would I go so far as saying that the EX1 is as good as an XDCAM HD high end camcorder such as the F350 with a decent HD lens? Not quite, close, but from what I’ve seen of the EX1 so far, it falls a small margin short of the PDW-F350 in image quality performance."

[rawfa]

Another quote
"The image quality beats Sony’s own Z1 and Panasonic’s HVX200 by a mile; the difference is blatantly obvious. However, from what I've shot on this pre-production unit so far, it falls a tad (and I do mean just a tad) short of Sony’s professional full size XDCAM HD camcorders. There is a reason Sony make a camcorder costing £5,000, and another costing £15,000 and another costing £29,000 and another costing £40,000. For me it doesn’t take much working out. Having said that, I would defy anyone to see the difference between EX1 clips and F350 clips once graded together on the same timeline."

[Barry_Green]

What announced price?

Sandisk issued a press release for the official US pricing of SxS cards. $500 for 8GB, $900 for 16GB.

[harddrive]

The key word there being "official". :) A lot of people are waiting for the store price - and hoping it's lower!

[zeke]

The key word there being "official". :) A lot of people are waiting for the store price - and hoping it's lower!

Amen, and considering their 32gig SSD SATA drives are priced around 400.00 USD I'm hoping there is lots of markup in those prices.

[Barry_Green]

But it's not an SSD Sata drive. It's something entirely different. Which is why it costs so much more.

[LuckyStudio 13]

The only thing that can save this camera now is the potential performance of the 1/2" HD cmos sensor and the effectiveness of the new codec. This camera is going to be more expensive than the hvx200 and the media is not going to be anymore significantly cheaper either.

Instead of instant preordering, it is now a "wait to evaluate footage" decision. I hope there is no more "Sony anti climax" features.

[Essami]

I dont suppose anyone would have an idea if you can flip the image on the viewfinder for 35mm adapter use? OR if one could record and upright image as well?

Im definately thinking of getting this instead of my previously planned hvx200 purchase. One of the main reasons being that I use Vegas to edit.

Sami

[rawfa]

I dont suppose anyone would have an idea if you can flip the image on the viewfinder for 35mm adapter use? OR if one could record and upright image as well?

Im definately thinking of getting this instead of my previously planned hvx200 purchase. One of the main reasons being that I use Vegas to edit.

Sami

That in consideration that it look exactly like a beefed up version of the FX1/Z1, with an extremely similar LCD I would say the magnet trick may work for flipping the image, the same way it did with the FX1/Z1. If there's one thing I miss about the FX1 it's the massive monitor it had.

[TimurCivan]

dx dont dismiss a seemingly great camera just yet. if the sxs cards are expensive there is probably a reason, just like p2 cards. the only "bummer" is the no video preview of off speed. the other "ehhhhh" feature is xdcam... but hats not so bad actually. im just spoiled by dvcprohd.

[Nik Manning]

I think the xdcam ex will be a great camera, but sometimes you have to take a stand and say that is complete bull. There is no good reason sony made the other cards incompatible other than it being sony. They claimed it would be affordable SXS cards and they are marked up at least 4X what other already marked up express cards cost.
Can we expect some sony only hdv tapes next when these new cameras come out?

With all that said if they sell it for $5499 with 2 8 gig cards I will want one.:)

[adkimery]

Shane Ross (http://lfhd.blogspot.com/) posted about some of the stuff he saw at IBC including some info on the EX. Here is an interesting tidbit I hadn't heard before,
It records ALL of the formats that the larger XDCAM cameras record. 25Mbps, 35Mbps in the usual MPEG-2 4:2:0 format at 1440x1080 or 960x720. But it ALSO records the new 50Mbps FULL RASTER 1920x1080 format. NICE. And the image is very crisp.


-A

[William_Robinette]

The XDcam codec that is current, (35mbit/s) is excellent. I would assume that the 35mbit/s 1920x1080 will be just as good and more then enough for 99% of the people on this board.

[Grug]

It'll be very interesting to see how the footage it churns out handles. For videography/event stuff it sounds like it will be terrific. For commercials/narrative stuff that people like to push around a lot more in post it might be a different beast all together.

And I can't imagine there being much advantage to going the XDCAM EX + SDI Recording Box route over just buying something like an HPX500 in the first place.

But I suppose that's all neither here nor there, just have to wait and see (damnit!).

[Nik Manning]

Ok Shane Ross (http://lfhd.blogspot.com/2007/09/report-from-ibc.html) Posted on his blog that the XDCAM EX will cost $4000!
"The camera will cost $4000. Yep...you read right...$4000. And the 16GB cards will go for under $1000. Two of them and the camera will set you back under $6000. CHEAPER than the HVX-200."

Well well the plot thickens. If this is the case it will be a best seller for Sony.

[LuckyStudio 13]

More in depth reviews here.

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/cameras/revfeat/first_look_xdcam_ex/index.html

[Nik Manning]

Dxmetal that review doesn't say anything about the cam being $4000 or it recording 50Mbs. I hope Shane is right and wasn't just referencing our dream cam.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Couple of notable info regarding the Cam from a new review.

"Key features: 3-CMOS comprising 2.2-megapixel sensors with 1920x1080 pixels, full 1920x1080p/i and 1280x720p recording at 35Mpbs including 24p and 50Hz/60Hz field rates, dual-mechanism 14X Fujinon zoom with mechanical focus and electronic focus, a true iris ring marked in f/stops, HD-SDI output, and flash-memory recording using PCI Express and compact ExpressCard/34"

"This is the first palm-held camcorder to emerge from Sony’s Atsugi, Japan, factory, renowned for its Digital Betacam, HDCAM, HDW-F900, HDC-F950, and F23 lines. Previous Handycam-style camcorders have come from Sony’s factory at Shinagawa, Japan, creator of consumer and prosumer camcorders such as DSR-PD170s, HVR-A1Us, and HVR-Z1Us. As a result, present and future XDCAM EX camcorders will carry a CineAlta marque on the outside and Atsugi DNA on the inside."

"The good news is that despite a larger 1/2in. sensor size, the 14X Fujinon’s horizontal angle of view is wider than that of popular 1/3in. HDV camcorders (including Sony’s own Z1) and a tad wider than Panasonic’s 1/3in. AG-HVX200, the current champ. For those in need of an even wider angle, Sony has created a 0.8X screw-in wide-angle adapter with a unique attribute: The EX1 digitally corrects for its chromatic aberrations (similar to Panasonic’s Chromatic Aberration Compensation [CAC] function for 2/3in. lenses"

"Where the 14X Fujinon leaps from the pack is its novel mechanical design, with independent focus, zoom, and iris rings. As with any other pro video camera, the zoom ring is marked in millimeter focal lengths and the iris in f/stops. But wait: When was the last time you saw an f/stop ring on an all-in-one camcorder? (Answer: never.) This is the first clue we’re not in Kansas anymore. The second clue is that the focus ring is marked in both feet and meters. The third clue is that the zoom and iris rings are geared externally like a conventional B4 mount zoom, which is how they’re motorized. Now notice that the focus ring, which has a rubber surface for gripping, slides fore and aft. Slide it towards the lens shade to activate either autofocus or servo manual focus (where the focus ring spins endlessly). Alternatively, slide the focus ring backward towards the viewfinder to achieve something more familiar to professionals: a meshed-gear mechanical focus with meaningful feet/meter markings. Yes, remarkably enough, the Fujinon 14X has two separate mechanisms for focus control. Yet because it’s a built-in lens, there’s no need for backfocus adjustment. Ever"

"Sony and Fujinon’s collaboration on the EX1 has produced another camcorder first: an active depth-of-field display along the bottom of the viewfinder. As focus, zoom, and iris rings are adjusted, you can watch depth-of-field dynamically shrink or grow against a distance scale. This function is assignable to a user button, so you can turn it on or off at will."

"The screen is an all-new transmissive/reflective hybrid LCD (works backlit or by reflection in bright sunlight). While the Z1’s hybrid LCD boasted 250,000 pixels, the EX1’s displays a whopping 921,600. Like the Z1 and V1, the EX1 provides an expanded focus function that magnifies the center of the image about 2X. The EX1 goes a step beyond, however, matching the 2X magnification pixel-per-pixel to the LCD’s native resolution to create a true 1:1 pixel display, available during recording for on-the-fly focus checks—a Handycam first. (Panasonic’s HVX200 got there already). At the rear of the EX1’s handle is a 0.54in., 252,000-pixel color LCD viewfinder like that of the V1. Notably, both LCD and viewfinder display a full HD raster. There is no underscan or overscan in the EX1"

" EX1 provides in addition to four standard preset gamma curves, four CINE Gamma curves identical to those in the F330/350 and, for that matter, F900R and F23. (Where they’re known as HyperGamma curves 1-4. For some reason, the ordering is scrambled in the F330/350 and EX1. CINE1 with a 108-percent white clip is the same as HyperGamma 4. Regardless of label, however, these are useful tools for finessing delicate highlight and reluctant shadow detail into view.) Just like XDCAM HD’s 1080-only F350 disc camcorder, EX1 offers over- and undercranking, which Sony calls Slow & Quick Motion. Except that EX1 does it better. Where F350 offers 4fps to 60fps in one-frame increments with reduced vertical resolution from 31fps to 60fps, the EX1 offers 1fps to 60fps in one-frame increments in 720p, and 1fps to 30fps in 1080p, with no resolution penalty at higher frame rates. In addition, EX1 borrows a page from the F23 (taken in turn from film cameras): “shutter angle” can be set in Slow & Quick motion to adjust dynamic resolution—exposure time of each frame—to reduce blur or soften flicker effect. The reverse function of this—shutter angles larger than 360 degrees, for a blurred, streaked, or ghosted effect—is available in EX1 as Slow Shutter, which is expressed in terms of “frame-accumulation periods” of two to eight frames, 16 frames, 32 frames, and 64 frames (same as F330/350)."

"The EX1’s imaging engine is the Exmor Full-HD sensor, another audacious CMOS technology from Sony (hot on the heels of the V1’s innovative ClearVid CMOS sensors with their 45-degree angled pixels). Comparing EX1’s Exmor CMOS sensors to the F330/350’s 1/2in. HD Power HAD CCDs underscores what makes them special. Each Exmor CMOS has a density of 2.2 megapixels (1920 x 1080) compared to the Power HAD CCD’s 1.56 megapixels (1440 x 1080). The EX1’s sensitivity at 2000 lux is rated f/10 compared to the F330/350’s f/9 (EX1 wins by a fraction of a stop). Both camera systems share a superb 54 dB S/N. While Power HAD CCDs tout a low vertical smear level of -120 dB, remarkable for an IT sensor, Exmor, being CMOS, has no vertical smear.

As indicated above, Exmor CMOS sensors are progressive/interlaced switchable. All images originate as 1920x1080. When 720p is required, Exmor captures at 1080p—in effect, oversampling—then downsamples to 720p prior to signal processing and MPEG2 encoding. In this manner EX1 lays claim to both native 1080 and 720."

"Additional focusing aids include peaking in four flavors—white, red, yellow, or blue—and a new intelligent mode called MF Assist, which supports electronic manual focusing. As you turn the focus ring to bring an object or area of detail into rough focus, MF Assist locks onto the nearly-focused object and takes over to ensure perfect focus."

"Adobe Premiere Pro 2.0 reportedly already handles EX1’s MP4 files with aplomb—drop ‘n’ drag style—ditto Canopus Edius Pro. Apple Final Cut Pro 6 (FCP) users will want to download an upcoming FCP plug-in called XDCAM Transfer 2.0 from Sony. Vegas 8 may require a rewrapping of MP4 files to MXF using Sony’s new Clip Browser, a free software program (Windows and Mac versions!) that Sony is bundling with EX1. In addition to MP4-MXF conversion, Clip Browser also provides instant viewing and copying of native MP4 clips. Avid Xpress? Currently, an editor can use Sony's Clip Browser software to view and select a clip, then select Export to MXF. The application then re-wraps the media into an MXF file for import to the Avid editor."

"EX1 doesn’t record DVCAM. Nor can it output DV of any sort. On the fly, it can convert HD to SD through SD-HDI or analog component cables, adding letterboxing if desired. That’s it as far as standard definition is concerned. When recording at 25Mbps (called SP mode), format choices are further limited to 1440x1080 and 60i, 50i, or 24p—in other words, HDV. (It is possible to parallel-record HDV to both SxS and an external hard disk drive at the same time.) Put another way, all 25Mbps is recorded as either 60i or 50i, which in the case of 24p requires addition of standard 3:2 pulldown. In contrast, 35Mbps (called HQ for high quality) is recorded as native 24p, 25p, 30p, 50i/p, or 60i/p. HD-SDI output of these native frame rates, however, similarly requires transport as 60i or 50i with 3:2 pulldown where necessary."

"There is however an ExpressCard/34 version that interfaces internally over USB 2.0 instead of PCI Express. It looks identical to the PCI Express version, but according to Sony, its reduced throughput is not suitable to XDCAM EX. For this reason and others, Sony requires, for now, use of ExpressCard/34 cards certified by Sony or SanDisk for XDCAM EX. They’ll be marketed by both companies under the logo SxS PRO."

"Sony even adds a few wrinkles of its own: file names that can be preset, a Rec Review handgrip button for confidence playback at the end of a take (programmable for two seconds, 10 seconds, or an entire clip), the ability to mix 1920x1080, 1440x1080, and 1280x720 clips, both progressive and interlace, at various timebase frame rates on a single SxS Pro card."

[TimurCivan]

It doesnt provide 50mbps 422. He got ALOT of stuff wrong ....

[LuckyStudio 13]

Nik,
There is no way in ___________ (insert your own $@#@#$$ here), that Sony will sell the EX for $4k.

That would be suicide for both the Z1 and V1. I speculate it is going to be MSRP 7999 with street pricing between $6.5 k - $7 k.

[Huy Vu]

Ok Shane Ross (http://lfhd.blogspot.com/2007/09/report-from-ibc.html) Posted on his blog that the XDCAM EX will cost $4000!
"The camera will cost $4000. Yep...you read right...$4000. And the 16GB cards will go for under $1000. Two of them and the camera will set you back under $6000. CHEAPER than the HVX-200."

Well well the plot thickens. If this is the case it will be a best seller for Sony.

More in depth reviews here.

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/cameras/revfeat/first_look_xdcam_ex/index.html

Seems to be a few errors in that report, probably typos. He already made an edit that it's possible the price given is in Euro, which comes to $6000, not $4000. And he mentioned it recorded 50 Mbps when it does only 35.

[Nik Manning]

The thing is even in his comments he states that it records 50Mbps. He didn't just make it up. He got his info from somewhere. Maybe it is $6000 us and comes with 2 16 gb cards. That wouldn't kill the Z1 or V1 market. That would almost make sense. Surely the card is fast enough for 50Mbps. Maybe that is why Sony and Sandisk is making them. Maybe with third party cards you can only get up to the 35Mbps speed. I don't know just trying to piece it together.

[TimurCivan]

Sorry Nik. Its 6k for the camera, and it does 35mbs. if it shot the 50mbps 4:2:2, that would be AMAZING. But thats like Panasonic giving us AVC intra in a HVX200. it aing gonna happen.

[mikkowilson]

As someone who spent a lot of time playing with this camera and discussing it at IBC, I can completly solidy confirm that it shoot 35mbps 4:1:1 and 25mbps 4:1:1 and that's IT. No 50mbps, no 4:2:2 recording.


- Mikko

[harddrive]

.........I can completly solidy confirm that it shoot 35mbps 4:1:1 and 25mbps 4:1:1 and that's IT. No 50mbps, no 4:2:2 recording.
No 50 Mbs or 4:2:2, but surely no 4:1:1? I think you mean 4:2:0, don't you? I don't know of any HD codec that is 4:1:1, and can only think of DVCPro with that colourspace for SD.

(At least in the 50Hz world.)

[Barry_Green]

Don't know where the $6,000 idea is coming from; the only price we've seen yet was $7499 at B&H. Tomorrow is supposed to be the US press release day though.

As for the 50mbps, I think Shane just got some mixed wires there. Sony also introduced a new 50-megabit 4:2:2 version of XDCAM-HD, called (IIRC) XDCAM MPEG422. That's only available on the 2/3" lineup of new XDCAM cameras, not the XDCAM EX.

[Barry_S]

Sony's UK site has had the specs up for a while now--so no mysteries re the specs.

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=PMW-EX1&site=biz_en_EU&pageType=Overview&imageType=Main&category=XDCAMCamcorders

Sony is aiming the EX1 arrow straight at the HVX200, so I'd expect the EX1 to be competitive on every level--including price. You can bet the SxS cards are going to be close in price to P2. In the end, I think it's going to come down to the higher res of the 1/2" chips vs. the drawbacks of a new flavor of HDV inter-frame compression and its associated weaknesses and workflow headaches. The EX1 isn't going to be a dog or a slam-dunk against the HVX, so I think it'll be worth evaluating for a lot of people.

Panny may think they're sitting pretty with the HVX's DVCPRO HD codec, but HDV EXCAM HQ is going to be a very efficient codec. Coupled with those 1/2" chips, I think it's going to be a horse race. As Barry mentioned, Vegas will have full support for the EX1--and other support will follow.

Timur--With the EX1 here and mini-RED on the horizon, I'd sure be thinking about AVC-Intra for the next iteration of the HVX. It's a codec that requires some upgraded boards--not a manned Mars mission. :)

[mikkowilson]

Erm, either 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 .. I can't recall exactly, but mathematically they are identical anway.

- Mikko

[TimurCivan]

No way.... i believe AVCintra will never make it to anything less than the HPX2000. Thats like sony providing HDcamSR to the EX1. its just not gonna happen. if it does, i will eat my shoe on film and post it here, ala Herzog.


Barry?

[macgregor]

Unless they ruin the colors (something which Sony has done in the past) this comera is going to be the coolest thing made by humans (together with the ISS and the RED1).

1/2" sensors
CMOS
full 1080p
solid memory
interchangable lenses
nice LCD
competitive price

wow! it has everything!

[mikkowilson]

Guys, the EX1 does NOT have interchangeable lenses.

- Mikko

[harddrive]

Erm, either 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 .. I can't recall exactly, but mathematically they are identical anway.
They may have the same ratio of chroma samples to luminance (25%) per frame, but they are far from identical in performance terms, which is why NTSC DV (4:1:1) performs very differently to PAL DV (4:2:0).

4:1:1 makes some sense in the interlace world, and it was initially implemented when digital recorders were just that - and interconnected by analogue links - it stood up better to multiple A-D/D-A conversions. Come the all digital world and 4:2:0 was found better in the main - especially when DVDs came along, whose spec was 4:2:0. It's the same principle with 4:2:2 - with interlace there is a lot to be said for having as many chroma samples vertically as horizontally.

None of that is true with progressive systems, and with 25% as many chroma samples as luminance it makes obvious sense to distribute them 50% horizontally and 50% vertically (ie 4:2:0). Colour space of 4:1:1 in progressive scan would mean a 100% distribution vertically and only 25% horizontally - totally pointless in a progressive world.

{EDIT} Yes, the EX has 1/2" chips, but what I find as significant is that the lens has proper manual control. In a camera of this class, I find that more important than the interchangeable aspect, especially as it seems to be the widest fixed lens, bettering both the HVX (just) and the Z1.

[TimurCivan]

ISS and the RED1).


ISS?

[mikkowilson]

International Space Station?

- Mikko

[Alvise Tedesco]

Mikko, such a shame you didn't took a small magnet in your pocket to IBC..
Did you?

[Matthew R. Rodwell]

Not sure if this was already posted but here is a 30min vid from sony about the XDCAM EX...

mms://sony.wmsvc.vitalstreamcdn.com/sony_vitalstream_com/EXlogo.wmv

[Barry_S]

No way.... i believe AVCintra will never make it to anything less than the HPX2000. Thats like sony providing HDcamSR to the EX1. its just not gonna happen. if it does, i will eat my shoe on film and post it here, ala Herzog.




I'd imagine one's shoe can get rather dirty in NYC. Very dirty. :)

AVC Intra is just a codec. A codec that doesn't push the bitrates beyond the basic hardware specs of the current HVX--50 or 100 Mbps. AVC Intra is the successor to DVCPro HD, no? Significantly better quality and 10 bits at DVCPro HD *equivalent* bitrates. 4:2:2 like DVCPro HD. Why the hell wouldn't Panasonic put AVC Intra on the HVX300 (or whatever they call it)?

What? Because it happens to be an optional board for the HPX2000 at the moment? You think an AVC-Intra HVX300 with a fixed lens and 1/3" chips is going to eat into sales of the HPX2000 or it's successor? I don't see that as being an issue. Obviously, the HVX200a won't have AVC-Intra, but if Panny wants to stay in the game, it'll be on the HVX300. There's nothing about AVC-Intra that would add any significant costs for a new $5K camera. The boards will be new anyway and it would just be artificially crippling the camera and *limiting* the spread of AVC Intra Codec.

I don't think your HDCAM SR analogy holds up. The EX1 is a 35 Mbps camera and HDCAM SR data rate is 440 Mbps (600 Mbps for video+audio)--and 4:4:4 capable. The data rates for AVC Intra and DVCPro HD are equivalent and both are 4:2:2 codecs.

[TimurCivan]

Haha,

I agree and i would love it if they did, but i dont think were going to see AVC intra for a while on the Prosumer level.

Not sure if this was already posted but here is a 30min vid from sony about the XDCAM EX...

mms://sony.wmsvc.vitalstreamcdn.com/sony_vitalstream_com/EXlogo.wmv

Informative....

I wonder how the 50mbps, 1920x1080 XDCAM 422HD will hold up. Thats alot of Data at 50mbps.... Thats like Digibeta bandwidth..... I mean, DVCproHD is Subsampled to 1280x1080 and is still more compressed than DV at 100mbps.

Anyone have a F350 XDcam? Can you get a stroble light at night, throw up some lights on some buhses, and set off the strobe once while panning, i wanna see how the 35mbps holds up under that situation. Then repeat it with two pulses at 1/10th of a second interval, i wanna see if the codec offers enough bandwidth to hold two strobe lights within the same GOP.

I know someone is gonna say, what a random situation... But no, i shoot music videos and concerts, live stage shows live off stoblelights and constant movement in the frame with high shutterspeeds. Imagine a crowd shot, in colred light, with strobes, spots, and a full frame of movement. i want ot know that the whole image isnt going to go legos on me.

if it will hold up, i will seriously consider using the EX.

[Barry_S]

NAB 2008 HVX200a
NAB 2009 HVX300 w/ AVC Intra, MiniRed (2K 10 bits? 12 bits?)

[SPZ]

The thing is, AVC intra should be a fantastic codec, but nowadays high end prices are not that justifiable anymore for such codecs.

Convergent Design is coming out with an HD-SDI capture box with a 160mbs 4:2:2 mpeg2 intraframe (god I hate this intraframe and interframe nomenclatures... I always mix them up). Quality, while not 4:4:4, should be very high, and the avcintra advantage should be less evident. Also, just look at RED ONE's recording: 4k 25p on a CF card recording RAW at 4:4:4.

Before, the premium price tag of high end professional gear was part attributed to the very expensive tape mechanisms of the cameras.

Red one and Convergent design are proving that top quality production doesn't require these expensive tape drives.

CF cards are starting to be a big part in the post RED production revolution. Lets see how the big traditional manufacturers respond...

[Nik Manning]

XDCAM EX has to be the most confusing product launch of all time. Sony needs to step up quick before we really just start making up stuff the cam can do.

[TimurCivan]

it makes coffe and shoots lazers..... at 35mbps....

[LuckyStudio 13]

I think in the next few years we will see....

Pocket Pro Red Cam with zoom 'repackaged' DSLR 35mm lens - shooting 4k complete package @ MSRP $10,999

Prosumer Mini Red Cam with fixed ENG lens with 1/2" censor - Shooting 2k at MSRP $ 5499


Red Consumer Cam Shooting 1k, supply your own DSLR lens MSRP $2499

From Jim Jannard's record with Oakley, he is not the type that will just rest and be satisfied with the RED One and the Pocket Pro Red.

I think it will take 1 1/2 - 2 years for the RED One to be fully stabilized and be at 100%. After the growing pains, Sony, Panasonic, Canon, JVC better watch out for Jim. At the end, it is us, the consumer that is going to benefit.

[Barry_S]

Hard to predict Red's roadmap, but they're a force to be reckoned with. You can bet everyone from Panny to Panavision is worried about Jim Jannard eating their lunch. If not, they should be.

[Matthew R. Rodwell]

it makes coffe and shoots lazers..... at 35mbps....

Last time someone told me my camera made coffee it spent 3 months at the repair shop...but maybe I just put the water in the wrong spot :undecided

[Stephen Cross]

Does anyone think the use of the express slot media will see Panasonic consider steering away from P2 in the future? Considering the increased transfer rate amongst other things?

[Barry_Green]

What increased transfer rate? You mean from 640mbps to 800mbps? Hardly a factor. Panasonic could make P2 faster than SxS if they wanted to, if they RAIDED six or 8 SD cards together instead of four.

Yes the ExpressCard bus is potentially capable of twice the speed of the PCMCIA bus, but then again the PCMCIA bus is capable of more speed than any ExpressCard SSD in existence. :)

P2's not going anywhere, it's thoroughly entrenched in the broadcast world. But what I hope Panasonic does is introduce a P3 card based on the ExpressCard, that would plug into a P2 adapter. That way you could have both: compatibility with the existing infrastructure, and also benefit from the smaller size of the ExpressCard form factor.

[Nik Manning]

What increased transfer rate? You mean from 640mbps to 800mbps? Hardly a factor. Panasonic could make P2 faster than SxS if they wanted to, if they RAIDED six or 8 SD cards together instead of four.

Yes the ExpressCard bus is potentially capable of twice the speed of the PCMCIA bus, but then again the PCMCIA bus is capable of more speed than any ExpressCard SSD in existence. :)

P2's not going anywhere, it's thoroughly entrenched in the broadcast world. But what I hope Panasonic does is introduce a P3 card based on the ExpressCard, that would plug into a P2 adapter. That way you could have both: compatibility with the existing infrastructure, and also benefit from the smaller size of the ExpressCard form factor.

errrrrrr you Barry Green! You act like you right books for Panasonic cameras or something. That had to be the greatest thing they could ever do. Such a simple concept but obviously a winner! 10 playa points Barry! Let's just act like that was my idea. :)

[mikkowilson]

Barry has been pushing that P3 idea for ages. I remeber discussing it with him at NAB, and it was an old idea then.

- Mikko

[Barry_S]

Well, it's a damn good idea. That Sony promotional piece is pretty awful (those flying text effects made me want to scream), and they were very misleading about the way they contrasted SxS and P2. The technical differences are pretty much inconsequential, it's more of a convenience issue. Most new laptops only have ExpressCard slots, so they need an adapter for P2--that's it. I like the P3 idea, but I can see how Panny would see that as making the card less robust (more connectors, complexity) and more expensive.

[ChrisForbes]

New Sony press release today restating the under 8000.00 price point

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/broadcast_production/content_create_edit/release/31586.html

[LuckyStudio 13]

Can they be any more vague ? sigh.

The official Sony USA press release

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/broadcast_production/content_create_edit/release/31586.html

SxS Pro Press Release

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/broadcast_production/content_create_edit/release/31598.html

Notable*

The imaging devices used in the camcorder are three newly designed 1/2-inch type Exmor™ CMOS sensors, each with an effective pixel count of 1920 x 1080. This 1/2-inch type image sensor, allows the camcorder to provide an extremely high sensitivity of F10, a signal-to-noise ratio of 54 dB, and horizontal resolution of 1000 television lines.

The lens offers a wide angle of view of 5.8 mm (equivalent to 31.4 mm on a 35 mm lens), and many convenient features for diverse shooting situations.

To increase interoperability, a range of non-linear editing manufacturers are developing compatible interfaces, including Adobe Systems Incorporated, Adobe Premiere Pro with MainConcept MPEG Pro, Apple Inc. Final Cut Pro Studio, Dayang Technology Development Inc. D3 Edit 3000 Series, Matrox Electronic Systems Ltd. Matrox Axio and Matrox RT.X2, MOG Solutions Toboggan MediaTransfer, Newauto Silicon Valley Video Technology CO.,LTD.’s Himaraya 1000/A1200/A1500 series, Sobey Digital Technology Co., Ltd. E7 and E2000, Sony Creative Software Vegas® Pro 8, and Thomson Grass Valley EDIUS™ Pro and Grass Valley EDIUS Broadcast.
The PMW-EX1 camcorder is expected to be available in November at a suggested price of less than $8,000.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Official Site with video, brochures, info on the Cam and SxS card.

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10014/xdcamEX_index.shtml

[LuckyStudio 13]

http://www.dvinfo.net/media/xdcamex/

All are from the original EX1 marketing video by Sony. Just rename all the file extention to .tif

[LuckyStudio 13]

http://www.simonwyndham.co.uk/pmw-ex1-first-look-part-2.html

more report

[LuckyStudio 13]

http://ieba.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/sonys-xdcam-ex-hd1000u-more/

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.cameravideo.net/forum/haute-definition-hdv-dvcprohd-xdcam/7204-camescope-sony-pwm-ex1-xdcam-ex-premier-contact-a-libc.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSony%2BXDCAM%2BEX%2BMP4%2Bto%2BMXF%2B conversion%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

[LuckyStudio 13]

HVX200 vs XDCAM EX

http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Erste-Shots-mit-der-Vorserie--Sony-PMW-EX1.html

need translation

[Stevet]

The exposures are off on these examples.
The article mentions their pre production model had an exposure bug.
Sony is working on it now. It was hard to decode this from Germanglish.

One thing for sure, the last images with both cameras at 0db, the lens set up for the same field composition and both wide open apertures, the EX looks at least a stop or so better. Even thought the image is scaled down, their appears to be decent detail even under that lighting condition.

Also, the DOF is tighter at a given focal length and aperture.
Having said that, it appears they were using the tele end of the lens.

I'd like to see some wider examples. I realize, we're only talking 1/2" so that
kind of improvement may not be all that great, though better than the 1/3".

[harddrive]

One thing for sure, the last images with both cameras at 0db, the lens set up for the same field composition and both wide open apertures, the EX looks at least a stop or so better.
Unless done scientifically, with control conditions in place, I take these examples with a bit of a pinch of salt - though first impressions of the EX I agree do look very good.

Most particularly, these examples would only truly show the EX to be a stop or so faster IF the S/N ratios of the cameras with 0dB gain are equal.

If cameras A & B gave a given exposure, at 0dB gain, both wide open, but cam A had a S/N ratio 6dB worse than B, they DO NOT have the same sensitivity - cam B should have 6dB of gain switched in to make the test fair!

All that said, the EX spec does quote it to have a very good S/N figure at 0dB, so these examples do bode well for the EX - as would be expected with the 1/2" chips.

I await an authoritative and impartial shoot out between these cameras with great interest.........

[LuckyStudio 13]

I, for one welcome any additional stop advantages, especially to compensate with the use of a 35mm adapter like the letus extreme.

[Stevet]

I hear you harddrive. You make a good point. It's a relative to the noise floor.

I'm fairly familiar with then noise specs on the HVX200.

I am hearing the EX fairs well in the noise department, but you know how that goes.

We have to get our hands on it to tell.
- But if that last image is reasonably clean, which it appears to be though its resized and kind of hard to tell, the EX is going to do well in low light.

One thing I'm happy to see is the posted screen grab of waves hitting a rocky shoreline. The JVC HD100 and Sony HDV codec would show mpeg artifacts.
The EX was clean with no blocky artifacts -just solid freeze motion.
This was posted a while back: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=110306&highlight=dvinfo

I wonder which XDCAM codec was in use, maybe the 35mbit?

[TimurCivan]

that didint look like a stop... it looked like 2 stops.

[Stevet]

that didint look like a stop... it looked like 2 stops.

LOL, that's what I meant by a stop or so...
:)

[TimurCivan]

thats amazing. if its lowlight is that good thats impressive. though i must admit, the HVX200 image still looked more "pleasing" in the outdoor shots. the contrast was flatter, and the color saturation looked more natural. the EX is probably ALOT sharper, but hey, resolution isnt everything. But this is personal preference. I think sony made a hell of a camera.

[Stevet]

Tim,
The exposure was incorrect for the EX. It was noted on the site. The pre production model had a bug with the exposure. Sony is working on it.

[harddrive]

I hear you harddrive. You make a good point. It's a relative to the noise floor.
..........
I am hearing the EX fairs well in the noise department, but you know how that goes.

We have to get our hands on it to tell.
Tests on pro cameras are always quoted along the lines of "x lux, f10, S/N ydB". which is fine if you are able to do accurate S/N measurements.

My "quick and dirty" check on relative sensitivities to take account of this is to not even bother with 0dB comparisons, but to take them somewhere with relatively low light levels, open both irises fully, then put gain in to make the same exposure on each. Then compare resulting pictures.

If A is far less noisy than B, it is obviously the more sensitive camera in reality, regardless of 0dB results. This approach also takes account of camera processing to reduce noise with high gain, such as frequently happens with prosumer cameras. Once comparing a DSR500 with a PD150, there wasn't a great difference at 0dB, and both made comparable exposure with 18dB of gain. Big difference was that whilst the dsr500 picture was still usable (albeit noisy), the PD150 looked soft and smeary, and not really usable.

I've only had the briefest of plays with the EX, but it does seem to cope with gain very well. It does look very promising.

[LuckyStudio 13]

The Q&A done by Mark Kentfield during Sony Australia RoadShow.


1. Will the camera support a flip system for use with 35mm adapters?

No, there’s no flip system, which is a shame because the EX’s LCD is a beauty (more on that later). However, from what I’ve seen so far of the Letus35 Extreme (which flips the image with only ½ stop of light loss) that’s becoming less of an issue with the latest 35mm adapters.

2. What are the transfer rates from SxS to XDCAM ?

Will depend on your system, but the Sony guys were suggesting approximately 3-6 times fast than real-time download from the cards on to computer.

3. Will it be now possible to preserve the 1920x1080 format to XDCAM Disc instead of 1440?

No, however when the new XDCAM HD 422 disks arrive next year, you will be able to store your footage on those disks (albeit upsampled to 50Mbps). Peter Jefferson suggested that MP4 files could be stored as an archive, but not as an editing format.

4. How many stops of dynamic range the EX has, and how it compares to the 1/2" chip DV models?

Ben Allan ACS shot the EX sample footage for Sony Australia, unfortunately the tech I spoke to said he’d forgotten to ask him about dynamic range when they collected the camera. From the footage we were shown (screened on ruddy data projector – people at the launch up in Sydney got to see it on Sony’s 4K projector) I’d say that the EX’s dynamic range is very good – it looks better than any hand-held HD camera I’ve ever seen. Some of the sample footage had some very tough, contrasty shots in it (person in foreground standing in deep shadows under some trees, with a very bright sunlit house in the background) the detail in the shadows in the foreground looked superb - and this is with the brightly lit house in the background correctly exposed.

5. Are Progressive Segmented Frame modes (25PsF, 30PsF) available through i.LINK

I’m not sure, there was a table in the powerpoint presentation we were shown that had all of the possible output formats through HD-SDI, SDI etc. PsF might have been on there, they might not have – there were a LOT of output options on there, so I wouldn’t be surprised if PsF is one of them.

6. What kind of proprietary adapter is required to use the lens remote controller?

The Sony Australia guys don’t know yet.

7. Is the HD-SDI output live only and/or will it output recorded footage from the SxS cards at both bitrates?

HD-SDI offers output for both live and recorded footage.

8. Can the EX record to card and output SD out of SDI (downconvert) simultaneously and with matching timecode?

I’m not sure about matching timecode, but you can certainly record to card and output SD to a computer/capture device.

9. Will the EX accept a standard fujinon remote lens controller?

No

10. Will the EX be able to adapt (in any way) previous Lanc controllers such as the Manfrotto 523P?

Not sure yet, no one knows quite what Sony are planning for the lens controller.

11. Will the live HD-SDI output offer real 10bits and not 8 bits stuffed into a 10bit SDI stream?

I was told “real” 10 bits.

12. What requirements are for mobile workstations ( PC laptop clock speed, current MacBookPro or MacBook, Vista and Leopard compatibility), RAM size, Hard disk speed requirements?

Just about any current computer should manage just fine. They said they’d used a basic dual-core PC with 2Gb of RAM and Vista Ultimate, and that ran fine. If your computer can handle capturing and editing HDV you’ll probably be okay.

13. Can you copy HQ footage directly to FCS5or6 timeline without capturing or rendering?

Not sure about FCP5, but FCP6 will support XDCAM EX footage natively, just drag your footage straight off the SxS card and into the timeline and off you go! All you’ll need is download Sony’s codec for FCP6 (it’ll be available after they release the camera next month)

14. What are the best software options on PC?

Grass Valley’s Edius (Broadcast v4.6 – due soon) will support XDCAM footage via some software from Canopus (which unwraps the .MP4 files for you) workflow looked fast and simple, unwrap the .MP4s and throw them straight on the timeline.

Sony’s Vegas 8 requires you to unwrap the .MP4 files using the software that comes with the EX (looks quick and painless) and then you drop your footage straight on the timeline and start editing.

The workflows on all three of the NLEs we were shown (Edius, FCP6 and Vegas) looked quick and hassle free.

15. How does it perform against green or blue (or other color) screen?

No blue/green screen sample footage had been shot. I was told that someone had tried changing the colour of a t-shirt with some of the footage, and had pulled it off with some minimal colour fringing around the edges of the t-shirt. That’s as much as they knew I’m afraid.

16. How flexible is footage for coloring in native format?

The first footage we were shown was a short video of a woman painting, at first I was quite horrified by the blue tinting in all of the shadows, fortunately we were then shown that the footage had been colour-graded to look bluish (the native footage looked fine). I didn’t think it was a pleasing grade for that footage, but handled differently maybe it would have looked okay, that’s the only example of colouring I can give you.

17. Will there be a firmware upgrade in the future so that one can store 1920x1080 at 35 mbs from the iLink/firewire port on for example a new FIRESTORE model?

No word on whether firmware is being developed for Firestore, however 25Mbps 1080i should store on Firestore drives just fine.

18. Why no HDMI out?

Because they have HD-SDI? To my knowledge HDMI is a consumer format. The Sony guys sounded pretty adamant about this being a “Pro” camera. The camera has a LOT of output options, it would be hard to find a fault with the camera on that front IMO.

19. Can we use the bundled XDCAM Transfer tool on a PPC Mac, or is it only for Intel Macs?

I didn’t get to ask this question. But the good news is that FCP6 will support XDCAM EX footage natively, so you won’t need the software anyway… unless of course you’re running Vegas or Edius on a PPC Mac (do people run Vegas/Edius on PPC Macs?).

20. Can the EX1 record to DR60 (in SP mode, of course) without any SxS card inserted (or with them both 100% full)?

Good news here – the EX can both communicate with and record to the DR60 (in SP mode only) without any SxS cards inserted. And can record when both SxS cards are full, or as a backup whilst they’re recorded to.

21. What is the bit depth of the internal processing circuitry?

No official word on the internal processing circuitry. The images are captured off the CMOS chips at 14 bit A/D, the tech today told me that Sony’s internal processing is often twice the bitrate of the captured image - so 28 bit, assuming the EX follows this philosophy.

22. Will the cameras allow use of less expensive SSD cards or actively block them, even if they have sufficient throughput?

They dodged this question like true professionals! They wouldn’t say “no” but they also wouldn’t confirm if any non-SxS cards would actually work. Assuming that the read/write speed of a non-SxS card was compatible with the camera, it should work. But there’s no confirmation on whether any such cards actually exist. On the plus side – they didn’t say that camera would actively block such cards!

23. Will HD-SDI output live footage when over/under-cranking?

There’s been some concern about this, particularly for people using steadicam rigs on a regular basis. The bad news is that HD-SDI won’t output live footage for the majority of over/under-cranked framerates. The good news is that it will output the important ones. 1-23, 26-29, 31-49 and 51-59fps can not be outputted live via HD-SDI, however 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60fps (i.e. the regular framerates) are all supported.

[adkimery]

Nice info Dxmetal.

-A

[LuckyStudio 13]

So the US version comes with 1 free 8 gig SxS card.

More tech info is being posted here

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/520761-REG/Sony_PMWEX1_PMW_EX1_XDCAM_EX_SxS.html

[LuckyStudio 13]

More report here: http://xdcam.com.au/modules/news/article.php?storyid=303

Last night I attended the Australian launch of the EX-1, together with some highly critical DOPs from the ACS (Australian Cinematographer's Society).

On display were four EX-1 units, with their Japanese 'minders' answering operational questions. I did glean from one that there would be no 'memory cache' recording (well at least for this model).
Cinematographer Ben Allan ACS, provided an operational overview of the camera.

Firstly an edited sequence demonstrating its qualities in 'tight' quarters, this being a small room with an artist painting frantically on canvas with basic 'bounce' lighting.

To view this from Sony's 4k projector on a cinema screen - the results were exceptional to say the least.
Ben then demonstrated the colour correction he had made in FCP on the clip with split screen effect. A marked contrast from an overly warm to colder look - but no noticeable degradation of the graded image.

To prove the physical 'invisibility' of the camera, he shot amongst tourists around Sydney, to the point where he filmed them! All without reaction - and this within weeks of Sydney's highest security alert during the APEC conference, he even managed to hand the camera over to a security guard to shoot a shot of himself against one of Sydney's historic buildings, proving the camera not only looked like a prosumer camera it could also be operated by an amateur albeit when auto functions were enabled.

You may think this as being a funny exercise, but with security so absurdly stringent and permissions just an authoritarian nightmare, you can see where he is coming from, particularly from the 'documentary' camera side of things.

Next came exposure latitudes - now I think it was around 5 stops. The under exposed -2 seemed ok at some ridiculous ASA rating of 1600. I wasn't taking notes at this point but all looked good till he got to about +2 or 3 stops over exposed. Mind you the images still held up despite the lack of chroma! Ben commented favorably with the camera's latitude given the high compression ratios of the format.

The conclusion of this experiment was the fact 1 maybe 2 stops under is fine and you can probably rate it at 800ASA - point being, night shoots become an added bonus at this rating and worth experimenting.

Slowmo was also demonstrated @ 60fps with 720p. On the BIG screen at 4K imaging one could not see the difference between the 720p or the 1920 @ 25P.

Depth Of Field was also discussed - but owners of the 350 know soft b/g focus can be pleasantly achieved to some degree on 1/2 chips.

Congratulations to Ben Allan ACS for a very thorough run down of the camera in less than 3 days exposure to it.

I think this camera is going to have a lot of ramifications for both the broadcast and freelance industry. For one the camera compares very well with the PDW 350 / 355 in fact in many ways the CMOS chip outperforms the 1/2 CCD, but don't quote me.
For the first time in my life as a freelance cameraman, I'm now wondering if 'small' is better, here's a camera now on par with its larger counterparts.

For many freelancers this camera will fulfill most projects normally shot on high end SD or mid range HD (and then some). And to that end, for current owners of XDCAM, it will be more than just a second camera!

The camera is feature rich and as we all know here at www.xdcam.com.au (http://www.xdcam.com.au/) the XDCAM *worklfow really works!
Particularly when you consider it will take about 3 minutes to download 1 hour of footage from an SxS Card.

The PMW-EX1 is expected to be available this November. The suggested price: In Australian $ will be $9,490 ex GST and will include two 8GB SxS PRO media cards.

Oops, and the 32GB cards will be available in 2008.
*The 1920x1080 HD can't be stored on an XDCAM Pro Disc. One of the few negatives.

[Cosmo]

I would like to know about the workflow w/ Final Cut Pro. Is there any information yet ?

[TimurCivan]

Hmmmm.... 5 stops lattitude isnt so good..... The DVX100 had around 6....

[Stevet]

Hmmmm.... 5 stops lattitude isnt so good..... The DVX100 had around 6....

Agreed. We'll have to wait and see what it gets, but even 1/2" aside, I imagine the DX100 would have be better by a stop.

[harddrive]

5 stops lattitude isnt so good..... The DVX100 had around 6....
I think you may be confusing latitude with dynamic range, and I suspect that what the DVX100 had was 6 stops of dynamic range. And the EX has considerably more, as a CMOS camera should.

Latitude normally means the range of exposure over which the image is "recoverable", whilst dynamic range is the range of iris to turn a "just black" into a "just white". Whilst 5 stops difference may have been demonstrated in the example given, I doubt if especially the overexposed images were truly "recoverable" - "all looked good till he got to about +2 or 3 stops over exposed. Mind you the images still held up despite the lack of chroma!"

I read into it that the camera does perform very well in this regard, probably better than any previous similarly sized CCD cameras.

[TimurCivan]

Ahh Is it video specific?

[Stevet]

I think you may be confusing latitude with dynamic range, and I suspect that what the DVX100 had was 6 stops of dynamic range. And the EX has considerably more, as a CMOS camera should.


harddrive is correct!

Exposure Latitude: is the range between overexposure and underexposure within which the camera/media will still produce usable images.

Dynamic Range: is the number of stops of brightness the camera/media can cope with without turning shadows into featureless black and highlights into detailess white.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Very very strong probability that the XDCAM EX is going to cost $6499 and comes with 1x free 8 gig card. Also, a special promo for the early adopters, Sony would give out another free 8 gig card for maybe the first-second month.


*Keep in mind, this is just a very probable rumor and not a concrete fact.

[LuckyStudio 13]

$ 6499 + 1 free 8 gig card in the box. Get another free 8 gig card with Sony Rebate promo good on all purchases from nov - march 08

[Kholi]

$ 6499 + 1 free 8 gig card in the box. Get another free 8 gig card with Sony Rebate promo good on all purchases from nov - march 08

The plot thickens...

Sounds a lot better than 8k. Now we just wait for footage.

[Kholi]

Hmmm


Just a random thought:

HVX200 + Hydra

2k Resolution
1080p 60p Variable Frame Rates
4:4:4 14-bit (Right?) Uncompressed Image
Uncompressed Audio Feed
Option to use P2 Cards still

Or ... XDCam EX + XDR Portable SDI > Flash Media ( http://www.convergent-design.com/ )

Hard to say when the XDR is around 5k. But still.

[TimurCivan]

yea but that thing is still taking HDV and just making it SDI compatible. Also it seems to be converting SDI to HDV.... the EX can do that by itself.... Now if it recorded 422 uncompressed to flash then that wouls be something special...

[Kholi]

Yeah, actually you're right. There probably wouldn't be much benefit to using that with the EX at all. Guess that nixes that idea!

Didn't bother reading up on the camera until today, but I must say that I am now interested in the image. Wonder how long it'll be before we get to see some footages. October is half-through, as it is.

[mjeppsen]

B&H has it listed for $6999 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?BI=805&KBID=1062&shs=Sony+PMW-EX1&ci=0&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=product.jsp&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t) with only a single SxS 8GB card.

[harddrive]

yea but that thing is still taking HDV and just making it SDI compatible. Also it seems to be converting SDI to HDV..
If you're talking about the EX and the Convergent XDR, that's not true - I think you may be looking at a different device from the XDR.

The XDR takes an input of not HDV, but true, proper HD-SDI, at 10 bit 4:2:2 uncompressed 1920x1080 from the EX. It's then passed to an MPEG2 coder - but whilst HDV is one of the outputs that can give, it can also give long GOP variants up to 100Mbs, and an I-frame only 4:2:2 10 bit version at 160Mbs! That should be better than HDCAM.

Hydra may make sense if you already own an HVX200 and want to squeeze a bit more out of it. An EX plus XDR would seem a better bet if you're starting from scratch - mainly due to 1/2" chips v 1/3".

I got the chance to play with an EX recently (though not under controlled conditions) but have to say I was impressed with what I saw - at least in this price bracket. Most especially, the lowlight performance seemed far superior to what I'd expect from a camera of this size. (And what a treat to have a manual lens.)

[Kholi]

It's still 6k, though. Although portable.

Hydra will offer 1080p60p 4:4:4 and cost less, albeit not portable though. Yet, I think you can run a 250ft+ Ethernet cable back to the capturing station? Might as well be portable.

I haven't been on one pro shoot yet where HDX's or Varicams weren't tethered to a video village to begin with. Adding another cable (for narrative or commercial, not documentary) isn't really an issue.

[William_Robinette]

Remember that Hydra will not just be what Reel Stream charges, but also the apple hardware and monitors will have to buy along with it.

[Barry_Green]

You don't have to buy any Apple hardware, Hydra will work with Windows.

[harddrive]

One point in the XDRs favour is that it should work just as well with ANY camera, as long as it has an HD-SDI output. It could even be hired or borrowed as and when required, and used with ANY stock owned EX (or other suitable camera).

Just imagine you'd spent all that money Hydraizing your HVX200 and it developed a serious fault or got dropped on the lens........... I'd much prefer to keep any expensive "enhancement" as a separate box rather than a mod.

[Barry_Green]

But a Hydra-ized HVX is not going to cost that much more than a bone-stock EX1. It's going to be dramatically less money than an EX1 + XDR.

HVX: $5200 at B&H
EX1: $6999 at B&H

HVX + Hydra ($3500) $8700
EX1 + XDR: $12,000-ish, right? Isn't the XDR $5,000?

[Kholi]

Exactly. The XDR is like 5 or 6k. So a Hydra-Ized HVX setup w/16gb p2 card will be around 9k vs the 12k for an EX w/XDR.

Also, if you own an HVX200 you pretty much should already have the hardware you need to deal with Hydra. An extra expense that I could see being tacked on would be Hard-Drive space, or buying a fast, large Hard-drive.

Which is why I say 9k for HVX+Hydra setup brand new.

And, just imagine if you dropped ANY expensive item at all. It happens, that's not really a reason against Hydra at all.

[LuckyStudio 13]

You can buy the Xdcam ex with 2x 8 gig card(1 is after rebate) for $ 6500.

Do not pre-order it from B&H or cine abel though, get it from someone else.

[TheMusician]

The deal-breaker for me will be bad wobble or pan-slant issues which remains to be seen. That aside, you never know, Juan may decide to hydra-dize the EX as well which would eliminate the HDV hassel, and might give you higher frame rates at 1080p. Just a thought.

[harddrive]

I roughly agree with the costing figures, though yes to DXmetal - I've heard around $6,500 as the price to aim for for the EX. But the XDR could be hired as required, or shared amongst a group, in a way that a Hydra mod can't be hired or shared.

If just two people shared the ownership, that brings the cost of EX plus XDR to $6,500+$2,500 - $9,000! Very close to a new Hydraized HVX! And with the cost shared between three or more........

And you need to ask what you're getting for the money. With Hydra, it's an enhancement to one single camera, which also voids warranty on a new camera. The XDR can be ported from camera to camera, or even used to record the output of an HD-SDI mixer, HD minicam etc etc.

It may be more expensive, but it's much much more versatile, and likely to have a much longer life.
And, just imagine if you dropped ANY expensive item at all. It happens, that's not really a reason against Hydra at all.
Yes, but with Hydra you've written off the cost of HVX + Hydra. If the same accident happened with the EX + XDR, it's just the EX that gets written off. Bad enough, but.......

And not just cost. Replacing a Hydraized HVX QUICKLY may prove difficult, replacing a standard EX is likely to prove much easier.

There are pros and cons for each, but the XDR is certainly something that should be very carefully considered, especially for anyone starting from scratch. It may be different if you already own an HVX.

[mikkowilson]

That's what insurance if for guys.

- Mikko

[harddrive]

That's what insurance if for guys.
For the financial side, maybe. But it won't get a replacement camera any quicker, and if that prejudices the entire project.........

It is looking on the dark side, though. Personally I like the idea that EX + XDR CAN be a fairly simple self contained (even hand held) package, OR could be two separate cabled units. And the XDR can be used for other tasks, and other cameras.

Card costs are interesting as well. At the moment I can get 16GB CF vards adequate for up to the 100Mbs mode for about £135 (inc tax) versus £550 (inc tax) for a 16GB SxS, so pretty closely a quarter the price. Since 100Mbs is pretty well 3x the native 35Mbs, that means the card cost per minute using the EX/XDR is actually substantially LOWER than recording native HD-XDCAM to an SxS card.

[Stevet]

We'll have to wait and see how well the EX performs. If the EX performs as well as i'm hearing, the EX with XDR will be what I've wanted for a while.

We're in for some real nice cameras for a decent price over the next few years!
The HVX200 created this excitement. It' obvious Panasonic drove Sony to offer the EX.

Now, only if Sony would of offered a 4:2:2 version. We all know they could of, but hey, that would dip into
their next models profit margin. I'm sure Panny has something up their sleeves....

[LuckyStudio 13]

Price confirmed, $6449 + shipping with 1x free 8 gig SxS card in the box. Another 1x free 8 gig card after mail in rebate (good on purchase till march 2008 only).

Available from a National Well Known Online Dealer. They have 5 stores in 5 different states. They are taking 10% deposit down since last Thursday. First come first serve on Inventory. Expected Delivery
19th November.

PM me if you are interested and I can forward you the full Info (contact no, salesperson which was really nice).

And Unlike the other retailers, they do not penalized you if you retreat your preorder and the deposit is fully refundable.

NOTE: I DO NOT BENEFIT IN ANY WAY ON YOUR TRANSACTION ! I AM SIMPLY POINTING OUT TO YOU A BETTER PRICE THAN $6999 THAT B&H IS CHARGING.

P/S: Sony is currently working with Avid to provide support for the new codec. Sony also already have in place a converter that will allows most NLE to import the new codec from the XDCAM EX.

[LuckyStudio 13]

http://www.slashcam.de/images/texte/561-scharf-scharf.jpg

A test (http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Sony-XDCAM-PMW-EX1---Vorserienmodell.html) done in Germany between the A1 and EX. Seems like you can see more lines(more resolutions on the EX). You can babble fish that site if needed since its in german.

Kevin Shaw also did a line resolution/price comparison between these cams.

Canon XH-A1: 800 lines, $3250 after rebate

Z1U: 540 lines, $4400 after rebate

HD110U: 700 lines, $4400 with lens

HVX200: 540 lines, $5200 with colorista, anton bauer
EZ battery and barry's book

EX1: 1000 lines, $6500 with 2 free 8 gig memory cards

[Huy Vu]

Canon XH-A1: 800 lines, $3250 after rebate

Z1U: 540 lines, $4400 after rebate

HD110U: 700 lines, $4400 with lens

HVX200: 540 lines, $5200 with colorista, anton bauer
EZ battery and barry's book

EX1: 1000 lines, $6500 with 2 free 8 gig memory cards

This test seems skewy to me since you're not comparing apple to apple.
The 800 lines figure sounds about right for the A1 in 60i mode, but not 24F. Was the Z1 ran in 60i or Cineframe24? If it is Cineframe then it loses a significant amount of vertical res. The HD110 is 720p only and it's being compared against all 1080 cameras, so 700 lines is a lot. Definitely need more info before taking this test seriously.

[Christopher Barry]

Looking at the circle pattern, does it look like the XH-A1 is sharper, resolving more detail? Is that a moire pattern in the circle for the XH-A1?

Not a lot of difference in it. It would have been nice to see the HVX's detail resolved in comparison.

Low light performance and low noise from the EX will likely make this camera stand out from the XH-A1, HVX, etc.

Thanks for the link, Dxmetal.



http://www.slashcam.de/images/texte/561-scharf-scharf.jpg

[TimurCivan]

Where is this 1000 lines youre seeing? the chart goes up to 600.

[LuckyStudio 13]

The chart is from a review made in Germany. The 1000 lines resolution is not based out of the chart. It is based on the numerous cam's specification.

[TimurCivan]

Ehhhhh thats not a claim you can make then. Let someone shoot a chart and we will see what it can reproduce.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Ehhhhh thats not a claim you can make then. Let someone shoot a chart and we will see what it can reproduce.

huh ? That chart was shot by someone in Germany.

And Panasonic made the the HVX200 CCD with only 960x540 pixels and the EX has way more resolution on its CMOS chip.

[Giovanni Bertani]

In any case looks like that the XH-A1 is quiet a competitor for the price point!

I am happy to have bought it!

[SPZ]

In any case looks like that the XH-A1 is quiet a competitor for the price point!

I am happy to have bought it!

Resolution is merely one very small factor for overall picture quality... The A1 is nowhere close to the HVX in terms of gamma curves and color reprodution. And lets not forget the codecs we are talking here. As for the EX, seeing is believing. I'm waiting for a real world comparison...

[Noel Evans]

The A1 is nowhere close to the HVX in terms of gamma curves and color reprodution. And lets not forget the codecs we are talking here. As for the EX, seeing is believing. I'm waiting for a real world comparison...

Sorry but thats totally subjective and merely an opinion.

Where the A1 isnt close to the HVX is shooting variable frames in 720 and inability to shoot to solid state at 100mbps.

As for the EX I simply cannot believe people will simply look at the GOP structure and write of the high res 1/2 ccds along with many of the other features. Unbelievable to me. We should be relishing the day, however many seem bogged down in a lot of myth and heresy in addition to wanting to pick apart anything.

In addition SPZ, I direct this one to you, Giovanni only stated he was happy with his A1 and its the quite competitor. Cant say I blame him. Its a great camera.

Oh Shit, I am sure I recently said I wouldnt get involved in this kind of discussion anymore. OK I missed a hurdle. Last one for me though.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Despite of what HDV being crucified here on this forum, one only has to watch the XH-A1 works from Disjecta and some of the guys from Europe and be amazed.
Without a doubt, Panasonic has GREAT out of the box color and gamma, non Panasonic users just need to do a little gamma and color correction in post.

[Metrolens]

The A1 is nowhere close to the HVX in terms of gamma curves and color reprodution.

Out of the box, maybe. But if you hadn't heard, the A1's color can be thoroughly tweaked to be as good as the HVX.

The 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 argument has also been shown to be somewhat moot; the Canon's 4:2:0 holds up great in CC and keys incredibly well. 4:2:2 is definitely superior on paper, but in terms of what the eye sees, the cams are pretty much equal at rendering color.

Do some more research before posting thoroughly debunked ideas like this.

[TimurCivan]

huh ? That chart was shot by someone in Germany.



that chart does not show 1000 lines of res. it tops out at 600. the circular patters is there to show moire patterns. which the a1 does because of 24f deinterlacing.

[BlueWorld]

The 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 argument has also been shown to be somewhat moot; the Canon's 4:2:0 holds up great in CC

I love our A1, but Canon's HDV falls apart with any serious grading. If you're slightly adjusting a WB, it's fine, but if you're going for a stylized look, you hit the wall very quickly. The codec is the biggest problem with this camera.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing what a better codec in the XDR brings to this chipset.

[TimurCivan]

Hopefully the XDcam 35mbps Bit rate can help counteract the macroblocking. the problem isnt really the variable resolution that Mpeg Based recording formats have. The XHA1 has a GORGEOUS sharp picture and it looks that way in the HDV footage.

The problem is its like an eggshell veneer. once you go alittle bit below the surface, like start bringing up underexposed footage, the Mpeg Codec wont bother compressng information in the very lowest parts of the IRE scale, in a attempt to be efficient it just kinda... mushes it together.

[ProjX v2.0]

I didn't see this link posted anywhere prior but if it has been, plz disregard.

This is from the same site as the A1 vs EX comparison but this looks like some sort of bad EX vs HVX experiment:

http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Erste-Shots-mit-der-Vorserie--Sony-PMW-EX1.html
http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&u=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2eslashcam%2ede%2fartikel%2fTes t%2fErste%2dShots%2dmit%2dder%2dVorserie%2d%2dSony %2dPMW%2dEX1%2ehtml

[Noel Evans]

Hopefully the XDcam 35mbps Bit rate can help counteract the macroblocking. the problem isnt really the variable resolution that Mpeg Based recording formats have. The XHA1 has a GORGEOUS sharp picture and it looks that way in the HDV footage.

The problem is its like an eggshell veneer. once you go alittle bit below the surface, like start bringing up underexposed footage, the Mpeg Codec wont bother compressng information in the very lowest parts of the IRE scale, in a attempt to be efficient it just kinda... mushes it together.

That certainly seems to be the case with the Sony V1 form of HDV. Havent had that issue on the canon.

[Giovanni Bertani]

What I meant is that XH-A1 is still a good machine for the price. Of course the Sony XDCAM EX looks more effective in low-light but you going to spend the double amount of money.

Is like comparing an Audi TT to a Porsche 911...

What I feel a bit pricey right now is the Canon XL-H1. Maybe I am wrong but Canon now needs a better alternative on this price range.

Any news about the new Sony HDV?:

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_CH&contentId=1187079485470

Cheers :bath:

[LuckyStudio 13]

Another report

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2 Fav%2Fdocs%2F20070921%2Fsony.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

there is also report that the MSRP of the 16 gig card is $900 and the MSRP 8 gig card is $500. As usual, the final street price is always lower than the MSRP.