Sony XDCAM EX

[SPZ]

Sorry but thats totally subjective and merely an opinion.

Where the A1 isnt close to the HVX is shooting variable frames in 720 and inability to shoot to solid state at 100mbps.

As for the EX I simply cannot believe people will simply look at the GOP structure and write of the high res 1/2 ccds along with many of the other features. Unbelievable to me. We should be relishing the day, however many seem bogged down in a lot of myth and heresy in addition to wanting to pick apart anything.

In addition SPZ, I direct this one to you, Giovanni only stated he was happy with his A1 and its the quite competitor. Cant say I blame him. Its a great camera.

Oh shi*, I am sure I recently said I wouldnt get involved in this kind of discussion anymore. OK I missed a hurdle. Last one for me though.

I've been somehow avoiding these forums since I promised a comparison of motion rendition between 25p post processed on a High end Telecine and prior to telecine. I've been with my hands full on this, which was just broadcasted internationally,

http://www.macau.grandprix.gov.mo/mgpc07/video.php?lang=en

(Sorry for the self promotion here- This was shot 80% with the HVX- every single shot untill the actual racing shots- which is from beta sp source)

Ncje, I know what Geovanni meant. However, there really IS a significant difference between the codecs and Picture quality.

The look you see on the linked video would not be possible on the A1- specially the skin tones and colourful imagery. You could get SIMILAR results, but not the same.

I'm obviously not saying a very talented Colorist and editor cannot come with fantastic looking A1 material- it surelly is possible- like a skillfull driver can beat a not so skilfull one with a better car- but if you are putting this same talent on both cameras, you would get better results with the HVX.

The A1 is still currently my HDV camera of choice, though. And its incredible value.

As for the EX... Seeing is believing. Sounds promissing- but, seriously, having an HVX, if I was to upgrade now, I would probably look more seriously to the HPX500- differente price range, for sure, but a camera for a different "championship", and still affordable. Or go for the "red ferrari :) "

[Noel Evans]

SPZ sorry but I simply just diasagree with you. I cant change your mind and neither you mine.

Very nice shots in your clip.

[Metrolens]

Ncje, I know what Geovanni meant. However, there really IS a significant difference between the codecs and Picture quality.

The look you see on the linked video would not be possible on the A1- specially the skin tones and colourful imagery. You could get SIMILAR results, but not the same.

I'm obviously not saying a very talented Colorist and editor cannot come with fantastic looking A1 material- it surelly is possible- like a skillfull driver can beat a not so skilfull one with a better car- but if you are putting this same talent on both cameras, you would get better results with the HVX.



I don't agree with this either. One bit.

What are you basing your opinion of the A1's color rendition on? Your clips are nice, with deeply saturated colors, etc. But the A1 can do this too. I and people on these forums have seen it so many times, there's really no longer a question to most of us.

[Huy Vu]

The look you see on the linked video would not be possible on the A1- specially the skin tones and colourful imagery. You could get SIMILAR results, but not the same.

Yes, because it is shot on two different cameras, which is naturally subtly different in term of color renditions. By that argument, I can introduce a look that the A1 can create but the HVX can't exactly replicate and claim that the A1 is better. You can tell me that you prefer the look of the HVX, which is your personal opinion that you're entitled to, but please don't make a blanket statement that the A1's look is inherently inferior.


... but if you are putting this same talent on both cameras, you would get better results with the HVX.


I don't even know what to say to this

[RichardVClark]

Any new news on the EX?

[killamill]

The EX records with the Mpeg HD codec, that´s 35mb/s at the tops... while DvcPro HD is 100mb/s...

So... is it worth it?

I´ve used an HVX200E as a second camera of a Super16mm shortfilm, and it was perfect... I wonder if I can do this with the EX...

[TimurCivan]

Well the EX and the XDcam codec record the IMage part at 35mbps. the audio is uncompressed at 4channels and that makes the total something like 50mbps. I think.... I HOPE HOPE HOPE.... it doesnt compress audio too. HOPE.

the images should be fine for basic event coverage, and narritive stuff thats not composite intensive and CC intensive. though im sure it will look ok even if you go that route. XDcam isnt too bad. PLus you can go SDI out and record a low compression 4:2:2 Video signal thats 1920x1080. that will be pretty awesome.

[Barry_S]

The EX records two uncompressed 16 bit 48 kHz channels of audio, so that adds roughly 3 Mbs to the video datastream--about 38 Mbs total. I think we'll have to wait for a real comparo because the spec-fighting is sort of pointless. I think it's clear that the EX is going to have it's strengths against the HVX, but it'll depend on what you shoot and how you handle post.

[William_Robinette]

Remember the XDcam HD codec @ 35mbps is VBR.

It handles post grading well.

[Cees Mutsaers]

for my eyes the A1 has higher resolution except on the circles where i see some strange interference pattern



http://www.slashcam.de/images/texte/561-scharf-scharf.jpg

A test (http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Sony-XDCAM-PMW-EX1---Vorserienmodell.html) done in Germany between the A1 and EX. Seems like you can see more lines(more resolutions on the EX). You can babble fish that site if needed since its in german.

Kevin Shaw also did a line resolution/price comparison between these cams.

Canon XH-A1: 800 lines, $3250 after rebate

Z1U: 540 lines, $4400 after rebate

HD110U: 700 lines, $4400 with lens

HVX200: 540 lines, $5200 with colorista, anton bauer
EZ battery and barry's book

EX1: 1000 lines, $6500 with 2 free 8 gig memory cards

[marques]

Just thought I would share this pricing information here in Japan. It s at the bottom of the page.
http://kakaku.com/itemlist/I2020202030N101/

700,000.00 JPY

=

6,103.55 USD

[killamill]

Well... it´s everything on the DP and how everything is planned... right?

For example, here in Argentina in the last BAFICI (Buenos Aires International Independent Festival) a movie called "El Desierto Negro" (The black desert) won the best photography... and it was made with a Z1

I´m not trying to say that cameras don´t matter... the EX it´s going to offer a few goodies and surely it´s going to behave more than OK if you know how to do your job...

I was just waiting for something else than Mpeg with 35mb of bandwith... 1/2 CMOS sound great... but the Mpeg 2 and the 35mb (being hdv 25mb) it´s disappointing...

I know it´s soon to say this, but I was expecting a bit more...

Amilcar.-

[SPZ]

Yes, because it is shot on two different cameras, which is naturally subtly different in term of color renditions. By that argument, I can introduce a look that the A1 can create but the HVX can't exactly replicate and claim that the A1 is better. You can tell me that you prefer the look of the HVX, which is your personal opinion that you're entitled to, but please don't make a blanket statement that the A1's look is inherently inferior.



I don't even know what to say to this

4:2:2 vs 4:2:0. Which one as more color information? You may not "see" immediately this difference, but in grading it surelly is noticeable. You may not believe what I'm saying, but I've been working with 4:2:0 for years, and what you guys at NTSC, used to 4:1:1, don't notice is how the compression for broadcast messes with the colors. Digital broadcast might somehow avoid this problem, but when you go airborne, there's compression. Its no surprise why professional broadcast codecs are mostly (notice the mostly- I know XDCAM is 4:2:0- but also notice how Sony is going to introduce a 4:2:2 version of the codec) 4:2:2 for a reason.

Its not a subjective opinion here. 4:2:2 is superior, color wise, to 4:2:0. And Intraframe is superior to Interframe. HDV is and was conceived as a consumer, or prosumer format. Its done to fit on Mini-DV bandwith. DVCPRO HD is done for professional use. These are facts. And I'm not falling on the marketing propaganda or technical numbers here. The results I see are apparent.

Getting the Michael Schumaker of Camera operators/DP's to operate the HDV A1 camera abnd hiring the equivalent of the Ferrari team in Post Production can produce very "Faster" results compared to getting Scott Speed driving an HVX with the Red Bull team in post production. But if you put "Schumaker" with the HVX and you'll see him setting faster lap times than when he was on the A1. Strange analogy, I know.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You think the A1 is on par to the HVX. To each its own.

The EX sounds good on paper. I want to see real life results. The German comparison (the one that put the HVX vs the EX), sincerely didn't got me excited to change my HVX for it. Telling there was "settings problems" is somehow "strange."

[killamill]

Well the EX and the XDcam codec record the IMage part at 35mbps. the audio is uncompressed at 4channels and that makes the total something like 50mbps. I think.... I HOPE HOPE HOPE.... it doesnt compress audio too. HOPE.

the images should be fine for basic event coverage, and narritive stuff thats not composite intensive and CC intensive. though im sure it will look ok even if you go that route. XDcam isnt too bad. PLus you can go SDI out and record a low compression 4:2:2 Video signal thats 1920x1080. that will be pretty awesome.

Sorry didn´t say anything before about the SDI out recording... yes, I agree... that´s a very good thing it has...

But still, recording with the SDI will not make it expensive? It would be good to discuss the cheaper options out there...

[mikkowilson]

Plus SDI recording wont' work at off-speed shooting from what I was told at IBC. Kinda a bummer for narative work.

- Mikko

[Noel Evans]

Well the EX and the XDcam codec record the IMage part at 35mbps. the audio is uncompressed at 4channels and that makes the total something like 50mbps. I think.... I HOPE HOPE HOPE.... it doesnt compress audio too. HOPE.

the images should be fine for basic event coverage, and narritive stuff thats not composite intensive and CC intensive. though im sure it will look ok even if you go that route. XDcam isnt too bad. PLus you can go SDI out and record a low compression 4:2:2 Video signal thats 1920x1080. that will be pretty awesome.

I tend to disagree when you are doing a comparative with the HVX because essentially (keeping in mind here the EX is untested and I am only going by tech specs) whilst you are capturing more resolution to begin with and laying that out over 4:2:0 compared to the HVX capturing a lower res and using a different approach by stretching the captured 4:2:2 to cover the same resolution your ending up at virtually the same point, but one goes route A and one route B and a fair analogy would be something like - Route a is 20km but is a straight road so takes 20mins to travel whilst route B is 15 KM with lots of bends so also takes 20mins to travel. You could argue that the windy road is more interesting because of the bends another would argue the straight road is better because its more fuel efficient. And Id say fair enough, do whatever takes your fancy.

On specs alone Id go as far as to say: They deliver the exact same thing, though the EX is better equiped with the 1/2" chip and SDI out. By rights if your shooting green screen from the EX via SDI at true 4:2:2 and then factor in the chips it SHOULD have it all over the HVX.

[StMad]

Sony's info on their lcd...

"High Definition LCD
When shooting HD footage, standard LCD screens can be very deceiving; what looked perfect amidst a full-day video shoot can sometimes prove very soft or out of focus back in post-production. This is a direct result of a simple fact: common LCDs usually can't resolve images in the same way they are being recorded and you end up cleaning up the mess. The PMW-EX1 comes equipped with 1-MegaPixel LCD screen, eliminating this oft-pesky phenomenon. Record with confidence, knowing that what you see is what you will get."

1 mp res vs HVX at 210000 pixels? The thought of running an adapter without an additional lcd is very attractive. With a little fiddling I can nail focus on my HVX with Brevis using the HVX's lcd (focus assist + focus on eyes or letters), but this would add incredible convenience, esp in run and gun scenarios. Time and testing will tell...

[harddrive]

...............one goes route A and one route B and a fair analogy would be something like - Route a is 20km but is a straight road so takes 20mins to travel whilst route B is 15 KM with lots of bends so also takes 20mins to travel.
An EXCELLENT analogy!!

Whilst 4:2:2 may well be preferable to 4:2:0 in principle, vertical pixel shift means the HVX cannot deliver all that 4:2:2 recording is capable of preserving, and yes indeed, the EX cannot preserve all it's front end is capable of giving. Which is exactly what ncje is saying.

Hence, for comparing which is best - HVX or EX - the whole 4:2:2/4:2:0 thing is less important than other matters. It's also worth stressing that whether you're dealing with progressive or interlace makes a big difference - 4:2:2 is much more preferable in interlace systems than progressive.

As far as real life goes, all I know is that I pointed an EX into a dark corner at an exhibition and fundamentally got a pretty clean picture. Doing the same thing with an HVX200 on the next stand and the results were VERY different, to the extent that I'd say they would be unusable. Not very scientific, it's true, but it just leads me to feel that all this concern about colour space, GOP structure etc is out of place. Who cares how well the compression system copes in post if the picture is unusable in the first place!!!

(And before someone else says it, there are a ton of occasions where just using more light to overcome the problem is simply not possible.)
.......... here in Argentina in the last BAFICI ..... a movie .....won the best photography... and it was made with a Z1 ...
In overall terms the ability of DP (to say nothing of script, acting) will be more significant than choice of camera. But all too often this point comes up as though the only two choices are good talent with a poorer camera or a poor DP etc with a better camera. In practice, what you should be wanting is a good DP, script, actors etc with the best camera.

[StMad]

Hmmm, shutter only goes as slow as 1/33 it seems. By no means a deal breaker, but it's nice to have options.

[Barry_Green]

Sony's info on their lcd...
Yet another blatant lie from Sony's marketing department. I mean, last time I did the math, I found that 640 x 480 does not equal one million pixels.

Better than the HVX's LCD? Unquestionably. A million pixels? A laughable lie. 307,000 pixels is more like it.

[Stevet]

A million pixels? A laughable lie. 307,000 pixels is more like it.


Sorry Barry, but -

The EX's LCD resolution is 1920x480 !
That's over 921K pixels

I've heard this directly from several "hands on users".
I've heard it IS crystal clear.
Though I did hear the viewfinder was not that great.

http://www.simonwyndham.co.uk/pmw-ex1-first-look-part-2.html

[Barry_Green]

Sorry Steve, but the EX1's LCD resolution is 640x480. Says so right in the back of their brochure.

The 1920x480 is the same exaggeration used by cheapo LCD manufacturers to make it sound like it's more than it is; they count the red, green, and blue separately. So they inflate the actual resolution by 3.

It's a 4x3 panel with 640x480 resolution. Again, just look in the back of the brochure under the specifications and you'll see that they at least printed it accurately there.

[Elton]

The 1920x480 is the same exaggeration used by cheapo LCD manufacturers to make it sound like it's more than it is; they count the red, green, and blue separately. So they inflate the actual resolution by 3.

Even Marshall uses this exaggeration to make people think they're getting "real HD" resolution on a very small screen. I agree, it's blatant marketing bs but the truth is that 640 x 480 on a 3.5" screen is pretty good...certainly much more than has been previously offered on a camcorder LCD in this class.

[Stevet]

Thanks Baryy.
Live and learn...
Why must manufactures create such bull...

It reminds my of the days when manufacture's would claim their amp could output 100 watts. We're they lying, NO. But, that 100watts was damn near a square wave sitting at the rail supply. LOL

[Barry_Green]

I have no doubt it's the best screen to be offered on a camcorder yet. I just take exception with the blatant monkey crap they spew, that's all.

[StMad]

I have no doubt it's the best screen to be offered on a camcorder yet. I just take exception with the blatant monkey crap they spew, that's all.


Agreed...that's weak. Their approach can feel like that of a second hand car salesman. When I read a press release or product info from Sony, I'm half expecting to see multiple exclamation marks to emphasise a point!!!!! :) . Unfortunately they're not the only ones who operate in this manner.

So...comparing lcds, we've got

HVX (3.5") 16:9 - 157000 (approx) eff pixels

EX1 (3.5") 16:9 - 307000 eff pixels

A1 (2.8") 16:9 - 208000 eff pixels

If I'm off, let me know.

Given how many things the Sony has going for it, I'm sure a lot of people will be holding their breath waiting to hear more about the cam's rolling shutter artifacts.

[Stevet]

Unfortunately they're not the only ones who operate in

I hear you there, but I won't mention who else plays this game :)

[harddrive]

The 1920x480 is the same exaggeration ........ to make it sound like it's more than it is; they count the red, green, and blue separately. So they inflate the actual resolution by 3.
But isn't this the normal way of describing counts in single plane devices? Exactly as Bayer sensors in cameras have always been described in terms of the total number of pixels - R,G, and B all summed together? So a 6 megapixel camera I'd expect to have approx 3 million G pixels, and 1.5 million each R and B.

[TimurCivan]

I tend to disagree when you are doing a comparative with the HVX because essentially (keeping in mind here the EX is untested and I am only going by tech specs) whilst you are capturing more resolution to begin with and laying that out over 4:2:0 compared to the HVX capturing a lower res and using a different approach by stretching the captured 4:2:2 to cover the same resolution your ending up at virtually the same point, but one goes route A and one route B and a fair analogy would be something like - Route a is 20km but is a straight road so takes 20mins to travel whilst route B is 15 KM with lots of bends so also takes 20mins to travel. You could argue that the windy road is more interesting because of the bends another would argue the straight road is better because its more fuel efficient. And Id say fair enough, do whatever takes your fancy.

On specs alone Id go as far as to say: They deliver the exact same thing, though the EX is better equiped with the 1/2" chip and SDI out. By rights if your shooting green screen from the EX via SDI at true 4:2:2 and then factor in the chips it SHOULD have it all over the HVX.

im not comparing it to anyhting. im just saying, i like the EX's features and i hope it doesnt compress audio.

[Stevet]

We liked it too. We broke down today and ordered two at $6500.
At that price, what the heck. We'll get plenty of use out of these for at least two years. If the camera head turns out be great, I'll also buy the XDR Flash drive when it's available. Although, it's a hefty tag at $5K. If this combo works as well as it reads on paper, the camera combo may last 3 to 4 years.

[SPZ]

We liked it too. We broke down today and ordered two at $6500.
At that price, what the heck. We'll get plenty of use out of these for at least two years. If the camera head turns out be great, I'll also buy the XDR Flash drive when it's available. Although, it's a hefty tag at $5K. If this combo works as well as it reads on paper, the camera combo may last 3 to 4 years.

That combo is in theory what sets this camera appart and makes me think of getting it to go with my HVX. Then again, that would be about 12k total. 14k with a 35mm adapter and a set of still camera lenses. HPX500 is 19.5k with lens...And its 2/3 CCD's- to shoot high end TVCs or feature/short, one can rent Digiprimes for certain shots, and use the CAC bundled lens for others...

XDCAM EX is 1920x1080 true HD chips... Theoretically, captured to the Flash XDR module would bring amazing picture... But would it beat an HPX with a Digiprime?

This would be a comparison I would like to see: XDCAM EX with stock lens/ a 35mm Adaptor recorded to XDCAM EX codec/ HD-SDI vs an HPX with bundled lens/ digiprime, recorded to DVCPRO HD/ HD-SDI.

One factor I also take into account is all the support gear I own for bellow 10lb cameras- steadicam, Tripod, etc. Upgrading to the HPX would mean I would need support gear upgrades. The EX can work with my current HVX200 gear...

One more question: Anyone know if the on board LCD flips?

EDIT- Kaku Ito, a very reliable person over at DVinfo is telling we might hear something from Panasonic in the upcoming Interbee show in Japan. I would also keep my eyes opened for this... Ex can wait.

[TimurCivan]

Dont forget the light efficency of a Digiprime/hpx combo. The EX is faster, but not that fast.....

[Stevet]

True the HPX would excel with its 2/3 CCDs.
But the EX "may" look sharper based on its rez.
The HPX is using pixel shift like the HVX200.

[mikkowilson]

We simply don't know how the cameras will compare untill they are all relased and cab ne tested side by side in a controlled environment. The last big "shoot out" compared the mid-range cameras in this field almost 2 years ago now. maybe it's timefor a Camera shootout Part 2?

We know how the HVX, Z1, HD100, and XL-H1 compare with the Varicam and High end CineAltas.. But there are certainly a lot of new players in the field that have not been compared:
RED, the HPX500, the 2000, the EX1, the V1 even, the A1/G1 ... there are many new models to be compared.

It's been said many times before, and I'll say it again...
You can piss and moan all day long about specs and numbers, but without testing the cameras side by side, in both a controlled environment, and out in real world shooting situations, there is no way to know what is "better" for what purpose.

- Mikko

[harddrive]

But I fully agree that a practical "shoot-out" would be more use than poring over specs. In the meantime, whilst I couldn't put numbers to it, I'm convinced from the evidence of my own eyes that the EX is WAY more sensitive than the HVX, whilst probably being sharper.

[Stevet]

It's a whole lot sharper.
I like the HVX200, but as we all know, technology has improved and things just keep getting better. I'm sure Panny will have something "up their sleeves" in the future.

[harddrive]

That combo is in theory what sets this camera appart and makes me think of getting it to go with my HVX. Then again, that would be about 12k total.
Worth noting that the XDR could be of use for much else than just being an add-on to an EX. It should be thought of as a self contained, very high quality, solid state video recorder, usable wherever there's an HD-SDI feed - not just as an add-on to an EX to squeeze a bit more quality out.

[Stevet]

Worth noting that the XDR could be of use for much else than just being an add-on to an EX. It should be thought of as a self contained, very high quality, solid state video recorder, usable wherever there's an HD-SDI feed - not just as an add-on to an EX to squeeze a bit more quality out.


I hear you there.
We're excited about the EX. We're real excited that someone offered SDI on a cam less than $7K.

[Barry_Green]

Canon offered SDI on a cam less than $7k a year ago. ;)

[Stevet]

I stand correct. I cam with native 1920x1080 sensors. :)

[baquajim]

But I fully agree that a practical "shoot-out" would be more use than poring over specs. .

No it wouldn't. Last time that was done there were two shootouts, one where the HVX-200 ended up being better and one where the Canon was better.

People were called names, sides drawn, people banned from certain boards, threats of lawsuits for defamation, etc., etc.

[Barry_Green]

I stand correct. I cam with native 1920x1080 sensors. :)

Well, Canon claims that their 3-megapixel HV20's sensor, when de-Beyered, delivers true 1920x1080 res...

[Stevet]

Well, Canon claims that their 3-megapixel HV20's sensor, when de-Beyered, delivers true 1920x1080 res...

LOL
OK, 1/2" sensor native 1080 cam under $7K :)

I've seen the HV20, nice cam for $800 but I was not that thrilled with image quality.

[Barry_Green]

Me neither; I'm donating mine to Isara so they can document what they're doing out there. Nice cam for the price, but ...

Okay, okay, I'll grant you this: the first 1/2", 1920x1080 CMOS HD-SDI cam under $7,000.

[Stevet]

I'm looking forward to what Panasonic might have for us in the near future. Things sure have changed over the last five years!

The EX looks like it might be a hit, but as it's been stated many times. There's always tradeoffs. Sure the 1080 sensors are welcome. Now if they mated that with 4:2:2 internally, this would of been a better package.

[Barry_Green]

It is 4:2:2 internally, just not recorded.

Panasonic's announced something new, but it's not what I want -- I mean, they just announced a new "pro" shoulder-mount AVC-HD camcorder, but it's a bottom-of-the-line unit, not a high-end system. More like that new $1900 Sony shoulder-mount; seems both manufacturers are taking their pocket-cams and re-housing them in shoulder-mount bodies. Well, I guess there's a market for that, but I don't really expect our membership here to go ga-ga over 'em! :)

Now, had they made a $6,000 three-chip shoulder-mount AVC-HD camera, that might have turned some heads. Well, we can still have hope that something will come of all those HVX200A suggestions we made...

[LuckyStudio 13]

Get the Sony XDCAM Ex (English) User Manual here and learn more about this little astonishing camera. The CineAlta Picture profile Setting is awesome !

http://rapidshare.com/files/66807555/XDCAM_EX_MANUAL_copy.pdf.zip

[LuckyStudio 13]

1st batch USA XDCAM EX1 shipping on Nov 19th, 2007.

[Stevet]

1st batch USA XDCAM EX1 shipping on Nov 19th, 2007.

YES!

I can only hope I'll be in that first batch..

[karapetkov]

Sounds interesting, but the only thing that can make me think twice about an HVX is a RED ONE...

These are the ways of love.

Sorry Sonny.

[myCharlie]

Just thought I would share this pricing information here in Japan. It s at the bottom of the page.
http://kakaku.com/itemlist/I2020202030N101/

700,000.00 JPY

=

6,103.55 USD

I don't think the shipping cost is $600 from Japan to the US, is it? Too bad I can't read Japanese.

[TheMusician]

Has anyone heard about recording options other than SxS? I have already heard about the XDR, which sounds really cool but is a little outside of my price range. Any news about a firestore solution or any hard disc(long record time) options in the $1000 range?

[marques]

my charlie

if you follow the links for the camera, there will be some shop phone numbers and more than likely they will beable to speak english. if not maybe i could help you some way. there maybe some issues with the ntsc differences between japan and usa

[Barry_Green]

Has anyone heard about recording options other than SxS? I have already heard about the XDR, which sounds really cool but is a little outside of my price range. Any news about a firestore solution or any hard disc(long record time) options in the $1000 range?

Can't happen. The EX1 doesn't output anything other than HDV over its firewire port, so a FireStore won't be an option now or ever -- unless all you want is HDV, of course.

If you want to record with an EX1, you have to either use SxS cards, or somehow record the HD-SDI signal. And no HD-SDI recorder is going to be anywhere near the cost of an SxS card.

[mikkowilson]

And keep in mind, I was told at IBC that all the video outputs become dissabled when shooting off-speed. - So if you want variable framerates, then it's SxS ONLY.


- Mikko

[Barry_Green]

Oh yeah, forgot that.

[myCharlie]

my charlie

if you follow the links for the camera, there will be some shop phone numbers and more than likely they will beable to speak english. if not maybe i could help you some way. there maybe some issues with the ntsc differences between japan and usa

It's a bit late now. I just put an order on B&H for the camera and Manfreto tripod.

As to the recording options, I wonder if there is any laptops that are equiped with HD-SDI port for recording the HD-SDI in low compression.

As for the SxS card, does anyone know if any third party besides Sony and SandDisk is making this card? Hopefully their will be more manufactures making compatible express card for this camera.

[Elton]

As to the recording options, I wonder if there is any laptops that are equiped with HD-SDI port for recording the HD-SDI in low compression.

No laptop cards with HD-SDI that I'm aware of but there's the IO HD option from AJA that will record and compress HD-SDI signals via FCP and a MacBook Pro. It works by using an HD-SDI equipped portable breakout box connected to the MacBook Pro via FW800. You can record direct to ProRes, DVCPRO HD and other codecs.

It's not the ultimate portable solution such as the Flash XDR from Convergent Design, but it's much better than lugging a workstation around.

[RichardVClark]

Maybe we should start a list of authorized dealers and their prices. I will go first (the only price I know)...

US Authorized Dealers

B&H PHOTO - $ 6,699.00
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/520761-REG/Sony_PMWEX1UC_PMW_EX1_XDCAM_EX_SxS.html

[myCharlie]

Maybe we should start a list of authorized dealers and their prices. I will go first (the only price I know)...

US Authorized Dealers

B&H PHOTO - $ 6,699.00
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/520761-REG/Sony_PMWEX1UC_PMW_EX1_XDCAM_EX_SxS.html

That is a good idea. There is a person in this thread mentioned a price of $6500 but when I contacted via email, I did not get a response back. It would be a good idea to list the SxS card too. I've been trying to pre-order the 16GB SxS card but there is no where to be found....not even at B&H site.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Sorry, my last PM to you must be stuck. I already resend the info to you again. Check your PM. The info is all there, if any of you would like to get the sales info please send me a PM.

Thanks

[Stevet]

I followed Dxmetals suggestion and ordered two EX1s about two weeks ago!
I'm hoping to have them before mid December.

[myCharlie]

Mid December? I thought they're shipping out November 19th.

[THoff]

That doesn't mean that everybody who wants one (or two) will have them by the end of the month. There's going to be a good-sized backlog of orders.

[LuckyStudio 13]

I heard CNN ordered somewhere between 100 - 150 units for their ENG news crew.

[RimasDVX]

other place to buy:
http://www.expandore.biz/product_list.asp

[RichardVClark]

Dxmetal can you post a link to their website? 6500 would be very nice...

[LuckyStudio 13]

Richard,

Check your PM. You an get the Sony XDCAM EX for only $6449.00 with 2 free 8 gig SxS cards.

That is like buying the 1/2" full HD, Variable Frame rate, tapeless camera for only $4449.00

[RichardVClark]

Thank you

[myCharlie]

other place to buy:
http://www.expandore.biz/product_list.asp

This place is still $100 more than B&H.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Shipping is confirmed to be on track for the 19th. The Cameras should get to the consumers beginning on the week of the 26th.

The dealer that I work with said, confirmed that they still have a couple of XDCAM EX preorder slots available for the Nov 19th batch.

Final confirmation on the Memory Card: 16 gig card is $ 899 and 8 gig card is $499.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Some XDCAM EX mp4 footage

http://www.vecomvideo.com/pages/test_ex1.htm

[myCharlie]

Can't happen. The EX1 doesn't output anything other than HDV over its firewire port, so a FireStore won't be an option now or ever -- unless all you want is HDV, of course.

If you want to record with an EX1, you have to either use SxS cards, or somehow record the HD-SDI signal. And no HD-SDI recorder is going to be anywhere near the cost of an SxS card.

Okay, so what about an independent external hard drive with an express card reader? Or an independent external hard drive that can transfer files from the USB port in the camera? Any options like that out there? It would be nice though if there are.

[Barry_Green]

If you're going to record on the EX1, you're going to be using SxS cards. No other options.

Once you've recorded to the cards, you may be able to transfer through the USB to a hard disk, don't know -- the HVX can do that (through firewire) so perhaps the EX1 does as well.

If there were such a thing as a dedicated expresscard hard disk reader (something like the Nexto CF2525 does for compactflash) then that may work for SxS, but it may also have to be specifically engineered to recognize and support SxS (just like devices have to be specifically engineered to recognize and support P2).

[moviemaker999]

Will the ex be able to offload footage to an ipod through usb. I know this was an idea with the hvx, but it used firewire and apple suddenly changed the ipods to usb.

[Stevet]

Once you've recorded to the cards, you may be able to transfer through the USB to a hard disk, don't know -- the HVX can do that (through firewire) so perhaps the EX1 does as well.

It' does. Once you connect the USB to a computer, the EX1 memory card contents will show as an additional drive on your computer. If you are using two cards in the EX1, it will show as two additional drives on your computer.

[mikkowilson]

But the HVX200 can dump DIRECTLY to a Firewire hard drive - without a computer in between.

- Mikko

[Stevet]

I hear you... My bad. I misread Barry's post. Good question, I'm not sure if the EX1 supports this feature.

[myCharlie]

But the HVX200 can dump DIRECTLY to a Firewire hard drive - without a computer in between.

- Mikko
Yes, Mikko. That is precisely what I was talking about. Someway to offload the data into an external drive wihtout the use of a computer in between. I guess for now a laptop will have to be used.

[karapetkov]

Waiting for footage....

[Noel Evans]

Waiting for footage....

Me too. Im not buying an EX though interested to see how it can perform.

[Stevet]

When I get mine, I'll post some links, but do not have a decent host.
If someone offers up an FTP site for me to upload, that may work.

[RichardVClark]

I'm going to order mine tomorrow :)

[Stevet]

More info on the memory cards. This may be very good news if it becomes a reality.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=774498&postcount=27

[RichardVClark]

Great news stevet!

[DavidChia]

I found a new camera like the EX1 with tape and removeable lens and dockable hard drive unit


It is translated from German:


http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://www.film-tv-video.de/newsdetail+M5540bdba1aa.html?&tx_ttnews%255Bday%255D=14&tx_ttnews%255Bmonth%255D=11&tx_ttnews%255Byear%255D=2007&langpair=de%7Cen

[myCharlie]

Very attracting; however, it is HDV. I like the fact that the lense is interchangeable and the hard drive unit is dockable. Very nice feature. Any price range on this unit yet?

[Noel Evans]

So when are all you guys who are buying due to get the camera?

[RichardVClark]

I might be in the first shipment on the 19th.

[Stevet]

My dealer told me that he's expecting stock by this Friday 11/16.
Since next week has two holidays, this will probably mean I will not see it until the following week, probably by 11/28.

[RichardVClark]

Maybe I will get around to posting some footage some day:laugh:

[Noel Evans]

HEH nah seriously if you can get some full res stuff up that would be great. Some traffic or something with plenty of movement and colour would be nice for starters :P

[RichardVClark]

Maybe I should do some comparisons with my HVX:thumbsup:

[LuckyStudio 13]

http://www.apple.com/support/releasenotes/en/Final_Cut_Pro_6.0_rn/

Sony XDCAM EX Support

XDCAM EX is a variation of XDCAM HD that records full HD resolution as either 1920 x 1080 or 1280 x 720 footage. XDCAM EX footage is recorded on SxS cards, based on the PCMCIA ExpressCard/34 form factor.
Final Cut Pro 6.0.2 includes support for the Sony XDCAM EX format, but it requires the installation of the Sony XDCAM Transfer software and an XDCAM EX plug-in. For more information about this software, go to the Sony website at http://www.sony.com/xdcam.
Final Cut Pro includes the following 1080-line XDCAM EX Easy Setups:

XDCAM EX 1080p24 VBR
XDCAM EX 1080p25 VBR
XDCAM EX 1080p30 VBR
XDCAM EX 1080i50 VBR
XDCAM EX 1080i60 VBRFinal Cut Pro also includes the following 720-line XDCAM EX Easy Setups:

XDCAM EX 720p24 VBR
XDCAM EX 720p25 VBR
XDCAM EX 720p30 VBR
XDCAM EX 720p50 VBR
XDCAM EX 720p60 VBRImportant: A separate plug-in from Sony is required to enable these features.

Connecting an XDCAM EX Camcorder or SxS Card to Your Computer

You can mount XDCAM EX media on your computer desktop by doing one of the following:

Connect the camcorder to your computer with a USB cable.
Insert an SxS card directly into the ExpressCard/34 PCMCIA slot in a MacBook Pro computer.When connecting an XDCAM EX camcorder to your computer, you must set the camcorder to target device mode. See the manual that came with your camcorder for instructions.
Working with XDCAM EX Footage

Once you ingest your XDCAM EX footage to QuickTime media files on your scratch disk, you can simply choose the XDCAM EX Easy Setup that corresponds to your footage and edit as you would with any other native format in Final Cut Pro.
Rendering and conforming XDCAM EX media works in the same way as HDV and XDCAM HD rendering and conforming.
XDCAM EX Format Specifications

XDCAM EX adds full-resolution 1920 x 1080 and 1280 x 720 modes and ExpressCard-based recording.
XDCAM EX records to Sony SxS solid-state ExpressCard/34 media.
XDCAM EX can record footage at two quality levels:

SP (HDV): 25 Mbps (CBR) MPEG-2 bit rate; 1440 x 1080 frame dimensions; 4:2:0 color sampling; MPEG-2 MP@HL-1440 Standard
HQ: 35 Mbps (VBR) MPEG-2 bit rate; 1920 x 1080 and 1280 x 720 frame dimensions; 4:2:0 color sampling; MPEG-2 MP@HL StandardXDCAM EX records 16:9 HD video. XDCAM EX can record either 1440 or 1920 pixels per line and 1080 lines per frame, or 1280 pixels per line and 720 lines per frame.
XDCAM EX supports both progressive and interlaced scanning, depending on the HD format you are using.

[myCharlie]

Good information, Dxmetal. However, do you have similar information for Avid?

[Barry_S]

No Avid support at the moment and no commitment from Avid.

I played with an EX1 today and also went to a Sony presentation on the EX1 at GVExpo. The EX1 is some serious competition for the HVX--no question about that. I don't think there's a clear winner--both cameras have their strong points. The output of the EX1 looks very very sharp. Even with the gain cranked up to high, the image looked pretty clean. The focus ring felt nice and it's unquestionably nice to have rings for focus, zoom, and iris. It's smaller than the HVX, but damn--lots of tiny black buttons on a black camera. The HVX's buttons are much easier to find. The multi-color peaking controls and superior lcd are a striking improvement over the HVX--very useable for critical focus without the need for an outboard monitor.

Sony's presentation was a frustrating mix of technical details, half-truths, and outright misrepresentation. FWIW, they claimed that the sensor design's use of an AD converter for each column of pixels allows very fast offload of data and minimizes image warp/wobble. They also put on a vigorous defense of their codec and made the point that even though the sampling is 4:2:0 compared to DVCPro HD's 4:2:2, they're starting out with more luminance information than the HVX's sensors and they end up with equivalent (or more) final color information. They also claimed the camera has a large buffer and is able to look ahead and do a lot of intelligent processing/compression before the signal is laid down--making the codec harder to "break".

Spec wars aside, I'd like to sell how well the EX1 can pull a key, and have it's footage graded without breaking up. Sony said the gamma curves are optimized for maintaining maximum dynamic range data rather than achieving a film look, so grading will be important. I also like to see if the image geometry holds up enough to get good matchmoving solutions.

[TimurCivan]

i hope this camera rocks.... I also hope it will provide an image output when using off speed stuff.

[Elton]

The lens itself was one of the biggest selling points for me. A nice, full manual lens with all the appropriate rings is just cool. No prosumer compromise there.

I'll post different test shots sometime after my EX arrives and I've had some time to really get to know it. Among other things I'll be doing some SDI tests and comparing XDCAM to different codecs such as ProRes (10bit and 8bit) and DV100. I'll see about posting a simple greenscreen shot too.

Btw, thanks Barry S for posting your initial impressions of the camera and the Sony presentation.

[Noel Evans]

Elton still hanging on to your Canon I hope? :P

[Elton]

I still have access to a few H1/A1's, but I don't anticipate that I'm going to need them that often.

Love the Canon's but I'm ready for a change.

[philip bloom]

Very attracting; however, it is HDV. I like the fact that the lense is interchangeable and the hard drive unit is dockable. Very nice feature. Any price range on this unit yet?

why do people still get confused by called xdcam hdv. It isn't!!

[Huy Vu]

why do people still get confused by called xdcam hdv. It isn't!!

He's actually talking about the upcoming shoulder mounted camera. That I believe is HDV.

[philip bloom]

Sorry I am being stupid myCharlie I didn't read properly.

Why don't people read posts properly before replying!?!?!?

[philip bloom]

The fact it is HDV is surely part of it's attractiveness. We don't need a new format. We want something compatible with all the Z1, V1 and A1s out there. I for one will replace my Z1 with the handheld jobyy when it comes out.

[moviemaker999]

I don't know about you, but I don't like holes on the side of my
camera!

Look to the right of the full auto button. I hear its for the cooling fan. Sony better put some cover on that because the manual says you should not cover the camera up unless you want overheat issues. Its not waterproof so I'm not sure what you do when its raining or dusty. This could be a deal breaker.

http://www.freshdv.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/sony_xdcam_ex_fuji_lens_detail1.gif

[Barry_S]

I noticed that slot playing around with the EX1, but I couldn't see anything in there because it was way too dark. Someone needs to shine a flashlight in there to see what's exposed. If it's just a heat sink--maybe no big deal. If you see the bare sensor, that might be a problem. :) You can see how a lot of those buttons are friggin small. My hands are pretty small and I still didn't like 'em much. If you've got big hands, you're gonna be cursing a lot with this camera.

[Stevet]

[LEFT]I Its not waterproof so I'm not sure what you do when its raining or dusty. This could be a deal breaker.


I doubt the fan will be a deal breaker for many, not me, that's for sure.

Those who want 4:2:2 recording without going to SDI is the deal breaker for some.

I'm really looking forward to this camera !
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/newsLetter/Sony-PVW-EX1.jsp

[Stevet]

I noticed that slot playing around with the EX1, but I couldn't see anything in there because it was way too dark. Someone needs to shine a flashlight in there to see what's exposed. If it's just a heat sink--maybe no big deal. If you see the bare sensor, that might be a problem. :) You can see how a lot of those buttons are friggin small. My hands are pretty small and I still didn't like 'em much. If you've got big hands, you're gonna be cursing a lot with this camera.

I hear you on the buttons. Even Nigel complained about them on his review.

[Barry_S]

Dx--deleted the interview you posted, not because I think the guy is a Sony shill (which he is), but because it's copyrighted material. Stevet has a link and that's fine.

[moviemaker999]

http://ieba.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/exchips.jpg

The inside of the Ex1

slot right nextdoor to the 3 exmor chips

[androbot2084]

All this talk about interlace scanning being obsolete and full of these horrible artifacts and now that Sony introduces a camera that supports all of the progressive scan formats and now people are saying that progressive scanning is not good enough because of this rolling shutter artifact. I suppose people will not be happy until scanning is eliminated altogether and all the pixels are captured at the same exact moment in time.

[ed 209]

If it's just a heat sink--maybe no big deal. If you see the bare sensor, that might be a problem. :) You can see how a lot of those buttons are friggin small. My hands are pretty small and I still didn't like 'em much. If you've got big hands, you're gonna be cursing a lot with this camera.

C'mon guys, do you really think they would have the bare sensor completely exposed? The slot is obviously not open to the sensor or the electronics. There is a wall between the compartment and the sensor/electronics.

http://ibc.mikkowilson.com/2007photos/saturday/images/XDCAM-EX%20%2814%29.jpg

As for the small buttons, I suppose if they were too big someone would complain that they accidentally hit them all the time. I guess you can't please everyone.

[RichardVClark]

ED 209 I totally agree. We all need to just take a deep breath. There is no way that Sony or any other company can please every single filmmaker. The camera should be out in less then a week. You can sharpen your swords, but don't cut down the camera just yet. Let's at least give it a chance...

Richard Clark

[FrankC]

All this talk about interlace scanning being obsolete and full of these horrible artifacts and now that Sony introduces a camera that supports all of the progressive scan formats and now people are saying that progressive scanning is not good enough because of this rolling shutter artifact. I suppose people will not be happy until scanning is eliminated altogether and all the pixels are captured at the same exact moment in time.

I think it's called "film"... The Ironic Hilarity is killing me:-Laugh(DBG):!!!!!

[ilauzirika]

I have a question.

Which camera hvx or ex1 would be better for greenscreen work?
I was thinking about the color space of the hvx (4:2:2) would be better for that than the ex1(4:2:0).

[TimurCivan]

the sony should work fine, the additional 10mbps make a big difference in green screen. just make sure its well lit. IF Mpeg artifacting get into the green it will be trouble. just like it is on DVCproHD.

[Justin Kuhn]

I have a question.

Which camera hvx or ex1 would be better for greenscreen work?
I was thinkin about the color space of the hvx (4:2:2) would be better for that than the ex1(4:2:0).

I agree. But then, I have an HVX so I want it to be better than any camera out there.

[mikkowilson]

Someone needs to shine a flashlight in there to see what's exposed.

Hehe .. I did that at IBC allready! It's open all the way through, there's a bit of a bend in there, so a normal glance in with a flashlight doesn't show much, but if you look in from the right angle on the other side, you can clean through the camera!

http://ibc.mikkowilson.com/2007photos/friday/images/SonyEX1%20(9).jpg

- Mikko

[LuckyStudio 13]

When you do green screen, it will be in a studio environment. Just hook the XDCAM via the HD-SDI, and you will get true uncompressed 4:2:2 which is better than the HVX's compressed 100mbps.

[ilauzirika]

When you do green screen, it will be in a studio environment. Just hook the XDCAM via the HD-SDI, and you will get true uncompressed 4:2:2 which is better than the HVX's compressed 100mbps.

I didn't thought about that, so the full hd combined with the uncompressed 4:2:2 and a well lit greenscreen should do better (at least on paper) than the hvx ?

[Barry_S]

I have a question.

Which camera hvx or ex1 would be better for greenscreen work?
I was thinkin about the color space of the hvx (4:2:2) would be better for that than the ex1(4:2:0).

I think we'll need to see a direct comparison of keying with both the HVX and the EX1 before that judgment can be made. All things being equal, 4:2:2 is superior to 4:2:0, but all things are never equal. The question is also how many people will have an option for HD-SDI ingest? I'm familiar with the Blackmagic and Aja cards, but is there an option for laptops. I know those cards run around a grand, so it's not an inexpensive option.

[ilauzirika]

true, we'll have to wait for a direct comparison.
as I'm still saving money I have plenty of time to make my mind.

I'm also concerned by that hole that goes through the camera. Hope someone from sony explains what parts are exposed and if it really could make any damage to internal chips.

[Stevet]

Here's the important part...
Try both cameras before you buy.

It's easy to say one is better than the other, but it's YOU that have to live with your decision.

If you can't manage this, try getting hold to as many MXF files as possible, put them through your paces, and view the results on
a large 1920x1080 monitor. This is probably not the best way to go, but it's better than not trying at all.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the EX1 looks like on my Dell 2405 24" 1920x1080 monitor. This monitor seems to bring out all of the good and
bad in footage. Neither the HVX200 or the HD100 looked that great on the Dell, but looking at highend hollywood HD it looked very clean edge-to-edge.

[Christopher Barry]

Steve, what are you feeding the Dell 2405, DVI or Component analog? A few options there, curious for each case you reference. I am assuming DVI in all instances. Thanks.

[harddrive]

All things being equal, 4:2:2 is superior to 4:2:0, but all things are never equal.
Very true Barry. Offered a choice between 4:4:4 and 4:2:0 signals it would seem a no-brainer which would be best. But what if the former was SD and the latter full HD? All of a sudden, colour space becomes far less significant than other factors.

Less dramatic with what we're talking about, but even using native codecs the EX is 4:2:0 from 1920x1080 chips, with full resolution recording. The HVX may be 4:2:2, but a best case of 1280x1080 recording, and starting from lower resolution chips.

Colour spaces denote ratios, and the number referenced by the ratio is arguably more important than the ratio itself. As Barry says, all things are never equal.

[Stevet]

Steve, what are you feeding the Dell 2405, DVI or Component analog? A few options there, curious for each case you reference. I am assuming DVI in all instances. Thanks.

You're right, DVI.

[Christopher Barry]

Steve, I also have some 2405's. Looking forward to similar observation.

[RichardVClark]

What do you guys think of the Blackmagic HDlink for use with the EX?

[Stevet]

Funny you should mention this. I'm thinking about picking one up.
I believe it shoud work well. This will come in handy when the Cineform portable HDMI 10bit 4:2:2 recorder eventually hits the market.
http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

[Barry_Green]

I suppose people will not be happy until scanning is eliminated altogether and all the pixels are captured at the same exact moment in time.
We've had that since 2001, and yes we're quite happy with it. Progressive-scan CCD with a global shutter. :thumbsup:

[Elton]

The question is also how many people will have an option for HD-SDI ingest? I'm familiar with the Blackmagic and Aja cards, but is there an option for laptops

For laptops there's the AJA I/O HD with direct to ProRes 10 bit recording via FCP and a MacBook Pro. At over $3K it's not cheap, but a very robust option for greenscreen shoots or anything where being tethered is ok.

[LuckyStudio 13]

HVX200 vs EX 1 vs Z1 vs XH G1

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=www.genkosha.co.jp/vs/sp/200712/

[LuckyStudio 13]

Sony just confirmed that the XDCAM EX cameras
were shipped by ground on 11/16 from Carson, CA
to the dealers.

Depending on your dealer's geographic location, Your dealer
might already have the cameras on their hand.

[ilauzirika]

HVX200 vs EX 1 vs Z1 vs XH G1

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=www.genkosha.co.jp/vs/sp/200712/

great thanks for the link

[philip bloom]

I am top of the list for my dealer in London and he said definately this week but he said that last week too!

[Stevet]

Created this bitmap from the bitmap 1080 30P samples of just the wine bottle alone and some of the curtains in the background. The HVX200 is on the left, the EX1 is on the right.

This is from the comparison mentioned earlier.
http://www.genkosha.co.jp/vs/sp/200712/

http://members.cox.net/vx2000/HVX200_EX1_Bottle.bmp

[philip bloom]

very interesting! As someone who has just sold his HVX to buy the EX1 I am encouraged

[RichardVClark]

Thanks for the breakdown stevet. I am a lookin' and a likin'...

[Stevet]

As much as I hated to, I sold my JVC HD100.
I could of used both, but since this was changing my workflow, I bailed on the HD100. The HD100 produced some nice stuff, but the codec can break under certain condions like shooting the seaside. Also, the HD100 noise levels could sometimes get in the way. The EX1 apparently is really clean.

[Elton]

I'd like to know more details about camera settings. The way the EX is handling the overexposure in the mirror with the car, cans, balls etc, is pretty impressive. It appears to have a really smooth roll-off.

[Barry_S]

At 1080p, the EX1 looks a lot sharper, at 720p, the difference seems marginal. The chroma looks more to my taste in the HVX grabs, but the EX1 looks like it may have the edge in dynamic range. If the EX1 footage can be graded without breaking up, that would be a big plus.

[Barry_S]

I'd like to know more details about camera settings. The way the EX is handling the overexposure in the (mirror?) frame with the car, cans, balls etc, is pretty impressive.


That's the thing--there are so many chroma and gamma variables in these two cameras, that it's hard to draw any absolute conclusions from a couple of grabs. But the EX1 stills look encouraging.

[Noel Evans]

If those images are accurate (no reason to believe they arent), then its pretty much what I expected. It is interesting that in 720 mode he preferred the HVX image.

Elton I noticed that as well. Id say one of the benefits of a larger sensor.

[Elton]

That's the thing--there are so many chroma and gamma variables in these two cameras, that it's hard to draw any absolute conclusions from a couple of grabs. But the EX1 stills look encouraging.

Agreed. I don't think anyone's surprised by the resolution difference in 1080, but the question of dynamic range can't be answered unless both cameras are put in their max range mode (which is probably flat and boring looking straight outta the cams) and then both properly exposed, etc.

Things are getting interesting. I hope all the manufacturers eventually move to at least 1/2" in the small form professional HD class.

[Stevet]

I'm seeing better latitude, lower noise, less compression artifacts, decent color, and sharper images even on the 720P image, but I agree, it's closer with the 720P.
The 1080 30P image from the EX1 is really good and in a different league of ANY 1/3" CCD cam i've seen.

Can't wait to see it moving.

[harddrive]

Created this bitmap from the bitmap 1080 30P samples of just the wine bottle alone and some of the curtains in the background. The HVX200 is on the left, the EX1 is on the right.
I looked at the images before I read the text above, and my immediate impression was that I was looking at an SD/HD comparison.

Yes, they are stills, not moving, so there is much still to be seen, but personally the difference is FAR greater than I was expecting. They certainly make me feel that native resolution is a far more important than 4:2:2 v 4:2:0!!

[Stevet]

Here's another quick glimpse from the 720 60P BMPs posted from the link earlier.
The HVX200 is on the left, the EX1 on the right.
The 720P is a lot closer, although the EX1 has the edge in this shot for rez, noise, and laititude.

IMO, the 1080 stuff from the EX1 is in another league over the 1/3" cams.
http://members.cox.net/vx2000/HVX200_EX1_Fatty.bmp

[RichardVClark]

The Sony image looks very "clean" compared the HVX.

[Barry_Green]

The Sony image looks very "clean" compared the HVX.
That's another trademark element of the "Sony look"; they've always had very clean footage. Even back when we did the Z1/HVX/VariCam/F900/HD100/XLH1 comparison, the Z1 was heads and shoulders better than the other 1/3" cams in terms of noise and "clean" imagery.

[FatDaddy]

Look how the highlight is almost gone on the cheek. That's what I'm talkin' bout.

Sweet.

[William_Robinette]

Yeah wow, that EX if looking awesome. Very close to the look of the 350 by just eyeballing.

[Stevet]

If anything this is good news...
I'm really looking forward to what's up everyones sleeves now.

This opens the door for future sub 8K cams to offer at least 1/2".

I bet Panny's next sub 10K cam is going to be awesome.

[myCharlie]

Okay, so I'm a little bit confused. What's the definition of a "true" HD resolution? Does it matter if the color space is 4:2:0 and the pixel resolution is 1920x1080 or the color space has to be 4:4:4 also to be considered as "true" HD? Or perhaps something else totally different that I'm not comprehending.

[Stevet]

Or, does it matter what the "true" definition is for HD.

I believe HD has to do with rez. Colorspace has always been a different thing.
Even in the days of SD. Remember those day.. LOL, just kidding..
old SD DV was 4:1:1.

I believe most attach 1920x1080P to "True" HD. That's the best our at home devices offer.

Barry could "shed some light" on this subject.

[joelnet]

Okay, so I'm a little bit confused. What's the definition of a "true" HD resolution? Does it matter if the color space is 4:2:0 and the pixel resolution is 1920x1080 or the color space has to be 4:4:4 also to be considered as "true" HD? Or perhaps something else totally different that I'm not comprehending.

My advice is look at the images. Get the best monitor you can and look at the images. Try to pull a key.

Guys will sit around and talk about numbers until they are blue in the face. Especially marketing people. It's hocus pocus if you can't see it. Shoot a greenscreen and pull the keys and do some color correction. You'll know really fast what's going on.

Looking at those 2 pictures the HVX looks very much like they typically do and the Sony is blowing it away in sharpness, dynamic range and color rendition. There's no comparison there. If that's representative of what this Sony does for real vs. the HVX then I'd be really bummed if I bought an HVX last week.



All I know is anyone who can look at those two pictures and argue the HVX might be better needs glasses or a new monitor.

And REAL 1080P is the format of tomorrow. If you want to deliver Blue Ray then you won't be shooting an HVX.

Oh - to answer your question I'd personally say a camera that natively captures 720P or 1080P is HD. BUT there are a lot of HD cameras out there and they all produce different images which is why I say use your eyes.

If you don't trust your eyes you can always look at what Discover Channel accepts for full shows. They approve the best cameras.

[Barry_Green]

Or, does it matter what the "true" definition is for HD.

I believe HD has to do with rez. Colorspace has always been a different thing.
Even in the days of SD. Remember those day.. LOL, just kidding..
old SD DV was 4:1:1.

I believe most attach 1920x1080P to "True" HD. That's the best our at home devices offer.

Barry could "shed some light" on this subject.

There isn't such a definition though. HD, as defined by the ATSC, means 709 color space and either 1920x1080x60i or 1280x720x60p recording. That's what HD is.

Various methods of recording HD have been devised, obviously; HDV and AVC-HD and HDCAM and DVCPRO-HD and XDCAM-HD and XDCAM-EX and HDCAM-SR and ProRes and DNxHD and CanopusHQ and CineForm and others.

Professional broadcast formats have typically been 4:2:2, although there have been exceptions; HDCAM is 3:1:1, for example, and dual-link HDCAM-SR is 4:4:4.

Broadcast HD (i.e., after it's captured and edited and then turned into a broadcast stream) can be an MPEG-2 transport stream at 19 megabits and 4:2:0.

So the definition's all over the board. I mean, what's SD? VHS? Or Digital Betacam? Or any of the multitude of formats in-between? Same thing applies to HD. We all know what it is supposed to be (1920x1080 uncompressed 4:4:4 glory) but that doesn't happen in the real world, so every recording format makes compromises.

[Barry_Green]

If that's representative of what this Sony does for real vs. the HVX then I'd be really bummed if I bought an HVX last week.
And yet, what happens when the images are in motion? What happens if rolling shutter artifacts come into play? How about we wait a week and let some users get their hands on the units and find out how they actually perform? If the rolling shutter screws with your footage, maybe the HVX guy who bought last week wouldn't be bummed at all perhaps?

All I know is anyone who can look at those two pictures and argue the HVX might be better needs glasses or a new monitor.
If all you want to do is shoot still-life images, then hey, I'm with you on that. But I despise the rolling shutter, I think it's the worst thing to happen to video since... well, since long-GOP, and if (IF IF IF) the EX1 is haunted by rolling shutter issues then I'd have no qualms saying that any of the 1/3" CCD camcorders would be better.

So how about we find out whether it's actually affected or not (well, I mean, we know it uses a rolling shutter and we know it's affected, but to what degree?) Is it an issue, or a problem, or a non-issue? We don't know that yet. We all knew the still-cam performance was going to exceed the HVX... as I said before, it had better: the thing has 4x as many pixels, sensors with twice the surface area, and a 30% higher price tag. If it *didn't* significantly outperform the HVX they should be embarrassed.

But stills are one thing. Real actual performance is something totally different. It may be that the EX1 holds the edge there, but it'd be nice to KNOW that for sure, wouldn't it? And "better" means a lot of things, doesn't it? To drag this up again, if you accidentally eject a card from an EX1 you run the risk of destroying all the footage on that card -- so, so what if your footage was a little sharper and clearer, if all 45 minutes of it gets destroyed due to a simple mistake? The term "better" means a lot of things, and right now there's way too much that's unknown for that word to be used yet.

And REAL 1080P is the format of tomorrow. If you want to deliver Blue Ray then you won't be shooting an HVX.
Okay, first of all let's just keep this real -- of course I would want to shoot on an HVX. Why wouldn't I? Tens of thousands of them are being used in the best production companies and broadcasters around the world -- to say "you won't be shooting on an HVX" is just preposterous. Maybe YOU won't be shooting on one, for whatever reason, but a blanket statement like that is just silly.

(And besides, deliver blu-ray to who? The 1/4 of 1% of households in the world who have a blu-ray player?)

Oh - to answer your question I'd personally say a camera that natively captures 720P or 1080P is HD.
And what do you mean "natively captures"? Because by "native capture" that rules out XDCAM-HD, 1080 HDV, DVCPRO-HD and HDCAM -- even though the best HD networks accept three of those formats for unrestricted capture, editing and mastering. That whole "native" thing is a squirrelly thing to pin down.

Put another way -- there's never been a camcorder yet that records 1920x1080 from 1920x1080 sensors. The HPX3000 was the first, and this EX1 is the second -- but there are some of us who don't consider long-GOP capture to be "native" anyway, so -- draw the line however/wherever you like.

But the fact of the matter is: an HDV camcorder shot much of an Oscar-winning documentary, the standard-def DVX has racked up back-to-back Oscar nominations in the best-doc category in spite of being "only" SD, thousands of HVXs are in use by hundreds of broadcasters around the world, and CNN apparently bought a hundred EX1s. So don't sweat the numbers, look at what the tool actually does and what it costs and make your decision based on things like that.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Put another way -- there's never been a camcorder yet that records 1920x1080 from 1920x1080 sensors. The HPX3000 was the first, and this EX1 is the second

Wow ! despite the obvious differences (2/3" sensor size, AVC intra, 5 p2 slots ..etc), We are getting the same full 1920x1080 resolution recording capability on the $6459 XDCAM EX as the $48,000 HPX3000 camera ! Kudos to Sony on this one, I bet a lot of their F3xx series customers will be upset.

Just solely based on the Japanese grab, with its full resolution, better detail, latitude and ASA 800 light sensitivity, using this baby with the latest 35mm adapter like the letus extreme will for sure yield wonderful pictures. :grin:

[TimurCivan]

wow it does make a pretty picture though. I wanna see high detial, moving, heavily CC'd or composited footage.

thats the test.

An i hope The rolling shutter thing is not there. I shoot lots of music videos and live concerts. That would KILL me if the strobes all went "half" frame.....

[Stevet]

The rolling shutter is there. Will it be a problem - maybe, but I seriously doubt it.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Dang it ! so this means I cannot go do a
"disco"music video in Saturn ??

The rolling shutter with all the disco strobes..... WHAT ? white flecks ? but isnt it called noise? WHAT? also don't forget all the deadly cosmic ray?

Man... do Sony ever do anything RIGHT at all ?? sigh .. :p

[Noel Evans]

Wow ! despite the obvious differences (2/3" sensor size, AVC intra, 5 p2 slots ..etc), We are getting the same full 1920x1080 resolution recording capability on the $6459 XDCAM EX as the $48,000 HPX3000 camera ! Kudos to Sony on this one, I bet a lot of their F3xx series customers will be upset.

Just solely based on the Japanese grab, with its full resolution, better detail, latitude and ASA 800 light sensitivity, using this baby with the latest 35mm adapter like the letus extreme will for sure yield wonderful pictures. :grin:

I sure hope it does. But .......... theres far more to a 2/3 inch camera. So while your getting a great camera no F3xx series camera owners will be crying, or even close to it. Ive used the f350 a lot in the past and its image quality is many more things than what this cam "could" be. I am sure there are many Fxxx xdcam owners out there saying hmmmm, thats a great quality B cam if I need it.

[William_Robinette]

Exactly, I am running, not walking to me hopefully soon to be boss to get him to grab one of these cameras for a small B cam next to our F350's, but I would choose them over the EX for many many reasons. The EX would win in some of our run and gun situations where lugging a f350 around might be cumbersome.

[TimurCivan]

Well yea. not being able to accurately cover a stobe light is a big deal. Imagine how weird "red Carpet" events, Concerts, parties, weddings.... etc would look if everytime a stobe went off only a piece of the frame was exposed.

ITs not a "rare" occurance. I mean , it has strange color effects under flouros, and could be an issue shooting a CRT screen, ( which i do alot when i shoot interviews for Scienceentral news. they have reasearchers demonstrate things on computer screens all the time) These are realworld circumstances. Now like anything it can be worked around, but its like, O h jeez, another thing to keep in my already crowded head.....

I will probably still buy the camera.... But im just wanna be prepared for its limitations.

[harddrive]

Okay, so I'm a little bit confused. What's the definition of a "true" HD resolution? Does it matter if the color space is 4:2:0 and the pixel resolution is 1920x1080 or the color space has to be 4:4:4 also to be considered as "true" HD?
"True HD" or "Full HD" has been used by manufacturers for a while to denote a display screen with pixel dimensions of 1920x1080x3. I don't know if it's the same in the US, but the EU has had a badging system for sets for a while - "HD ready", and to get that they have to meet certain criteria.

They have recently added a second (but also official) part to that, such that if a set is described as "HD ready 1080p" it HAS to not only meet the HD ready criteria, but also have a "true HD" screen and be capable of handling 1080 progressive material.

4:4:4 means "as much colour information as luminance", 4:2:0 means half colour resolution in both directions. (Taking advantage of the way the eye works.) Hence, a high resolution 4:2:0 image can likely be overall better than a lower absolute resolution one that is 4:4:4 - all else equal.

[Steve Shovlar]

Created this bitmap from the bitmap 1080 30P samples of just the wine bottle alone and some of the curtains in the background. The HVX200 is on the left, the EX1 is on the right.

This is from the comparison mentioned earlier.
http://www.genkosha.co.jp/vs/sp/200712/

http://members.cox.net/vx2000/HVX200_EX1_Bottle.bmp



Oh. My. Word.

If the footage comes out anywhere near that still, I won't wait until next April to get one, I'll go out next week!:shocked:

Need to see some footage comparisons ASAP.

[DavidChia]

Someone did a test with the Pre -EX1 & HVX in German , I got it translated here:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Erste-Shots-mit-der-Vorserie--Sony-PMW-EX1.html&lp=de_en

[LuckyStudio 13]

Some small clips from Sony.

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_CH&contentId=1193315622052

[Stevet]

Adam Wilt gets his hands on a PRE-EX1:
http://www.uemedia.net/CPC/cinematographer/articles/article_16640.shtml

[bvalente]

Hi guys

We had a good chunk of time with the Sony EX as well. I did a little write-up on our impressions here:

http://redrockmicro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4521

It looks to be a great camera paired with the Redrock M2.

Couple of things I want to mention/clarify (hopefully not too redundant with other points made here)

First, I think the 'native HD' conversation for the EX relates to the fact that previous HDV cameras shoot 1440x1080, and the use a pixel aspect ratio of 1.33 to get to the 1920. The EX has a true 1920x1080 pixels, so it results in a sharper image than say the Sony Z1 or other 1.33 par cameras.

Second, I'm surprised this isn't discussed more but the 800 ASA rating is pretty impressive to see in person. That, combined with a very low noise in their DB gain (in my experience: we watched 12db of gain pumped into the image in a dark room through a panny 1080i projector and didn't see appreciable noise gain) make it a good light performer. Always a consideration for 35mm adapters.

Finally, the rolling shutter and long GOP definitely set the stage for the debate - I do believe that the progressive 24p makes the long GOP less of an issue than for interlaced (see post mentioned above for details).

I do agree with Barry Green that a lot of this needs to be sussed out in the field in real-world experiences (not just Adam Wilt's labs) in terms of what it really means for practical shooting and great imagery.

Cheers

Brian

[Stevet]

Thanks Brian.

Since there has been discussion between the HVX200 and EX1, I thought it would only be fair to show the "still" frame comparsion against all 4 cams in the article.

http://members.cox.net/vx2000/HVX_Z1_G1_EX1.bmp

[LuckyStudio 13]

Probably the world's first "consumer production" SONY XDCAM EX1 cam footage

ftp://kamrat.selfip.net/public/EX1/

[myCharlie]

Hi guys

We had a good chunk of time with the Sony EX as well. I did a little write-up on our impressions here:

http://redrockmicro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4521

It looks to be a great camera paired with the Redrock M2.



I'm easily confused. I have read a lot of posts and it seems to state that the EX1 uses a 1/2" CMOS but according to your post in the link above, it states this:

"Three ½” (that’s, right, one-half inch) CCDs make this camera a remarkable performer on this basis alone."

So is this camera, Sony XDCAM EX1, use CCD or CMOS?

And yes, many thanks to those who shed some light on the "true" HD definition.

[Steve Shovlar]

Probably the world's first "consumer production" SONY XDCAM EX1 cam footage

ftp://kamrat.selfip.net/public/EX1/


Not working. NO login details.

[TimurCivan]

Wow the G1 really sticks it to the EX. ITs like 99% of the way there..... The hvx looks like the detial is on +7... Eww.

The EX's Image is beautiful. i love it.

[joelnet]

And yet, what happens when the images are in motion? What happens if rolling shutter artifacts come into play?

The footage will be whatever it is and I don't know what that is yet. But I do know this - based on these stills it could be an HVX killer as far as new sales go in the coming months.

I think Brian V. brings up a good point. At iso 800 along with the low noise of this camera will be an awesome match for the RedRock adapter. Add the focus assist to that list. A lot of HVX guys are RedRock owners and they know what a pain it is to lose all that light. Anyone who's fallen in love with 35mm DOF but can't afford RED is going to have to test the EX.

There are a lot of reasons to capture in real 1080P if you can. Pull your keys there and then downsize to SD. Noise and edge blending issues shrink.

Another cool thing is this camera is so clean you can add a pass of noise over your composite. One of the points people keep making about RED is that it's so clean but nobody's complaining. Everyone knows you can add noise in post if you want a grittier image. Adding "clean" isn't as easy. I don't want in camera noise. Especially for VFX where you're going to add a noise pass on top of the composite anyhow.

That rolling shutter is going to have to be very, very bad to stop people from buying this camera. Somehow I'm pretty sure it won't be. You might as well argue that every RED owner should dump their REDs to avoid the rolling shutter nightmare. Pros are judging the IMAGES. Which is all I ever advise anyone to do.

Anyway - let's give it 2 or 3 weeks and see some more test footage.

[nard0]

Probably the world's first "consumer production" SONY XDCAM EX1 cam footage

ftp://kamrat.selfip.net/public/EX1/

Some of the frames seem to jump out of order or something. I'll post a clip here in a minute.

[nard0]

Not sure what happened...Seemed kinda zany in the AE timeline. Frames jumping around and such. I exported the short sample and no weird frame issues. Sorry for the alarm.

[Aerialsfilm M*]

Downloading. How do I import in FCP6?

Mx

[Stevet]

Wow the G1 really sticks it to the EX. ITs like 99% of the way there..... The hvx looks like the detial is on +7... Eww.

The EX's Image is beautiful. i love it.

I hear you Tim. The G1 sure produces one nice 1080i image.
The EX1's 1080P in the best I've seen in a camera less than $10K.

[Barry_S]

I agree that the low light performance is impressive. Playing with the camera in the Sony booth, I decided to turn up the gain to see how it looked and found that the gain was already up +12 db. :) I wouldn't hesitate to use the EX1's gain settings in anything but the most critical applications. I'm not sure if the EX1 gain can be cranked up any further than +12 because I feel like +18 would be very useable for run and gun stuff.

[Steve Shovlar]

http://ex.bolanski.com/

EX1 footage.

[Aerialsfilm M*]

That footage (even the 25p) looks like it all was made with a slow shutter? Is that correct? I can hardly focus on anything when the camera is moving.

[Stevet]

So far I see none are set using slow shutter.

[TimurCivan]

could just be compression.....

[Aerialsfilm M*]

I hope so. First opinions? I like the still frames, it's the moving parts that gave me something to worry about.

[TimurCivan]

not every system is perfect..... Shoot look at the rez on the HVX..... But we still love it to death.

[Stevet]

Focus on anything moving? First of all, in those conditions try quick pans with your camera set to capture 24P or 25P, freeze the image and post it here.
What would you expect to see? I'm thinking motion blur, this is not 50P aor 60P footage. Also look at the room an how it's lit. I'm guess with no extras and only the room's convertional. I'm blown away it was able to acheive much at all in that condition. Try that with a 1/3" CCD cam. Everyone knows shooting 24 or 25P invloves NOT using fast pans, especially at close objects. LOL...

Please capture a bitmap frame grab and post here on what you believe is mpeg artifacts. I'm stepping frame by frame and see nothing.

[Aerialsfilm M*]

Maybe I'm comparing too much with the HDCAM that I've been using the last couple of weeks. I'm buying my next cam now for use with my SGpro, and I was doubting between the XHA1 and the EX1 right now. But I kinda like the EX1 more now because of its theoretical qualities.

[TimurCivan]

it would be worth it just for the Lowlight. Though now you have to buy the whole thing in one shot. SXS cards and all. Back in the day you could have bought the HVX shot on DV, so you can eventually make the trandsition to P2 later... with SXS youre stuck with it. Though i dont think anyone is buyin a SXS for SD work....... it doesnt even record it....

I hope they fix the Off speed no video out put problem.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Good information, Dxmetal. However, do you have similar information for Avid?

MyCharlie, I dont use Avid, but found this info that might help you out.

http://ex.bolanski.com/

I happened to read the license agreement for Sony EX1 Clip Browser 1.1 and saw they use ffmpeg inside it. The source file that is shipped with Clip Browser is a snapshot from 070512 so any newer versions could do whatever Sony is using it for inside the Clip Browser software. My guess is they are using it to do the unwrapp to mxf thing.

http://ffdshow.faireal.net/mirror/ffmpeg/

Knowing this you can use ffmpeg as a stand alone solution for conversion. I use it for EX1.mp4 to DV25 direct conversions. And EX1.mp4 demuxing to Mpeg2 and wav and for a test we used it to make Avid DNxHD 36Mbit (Only 1080 and no sound support yet) and a wav file that makes is usable in Avid.

So there are ways of getting stuff into Avid allready.

EX1.mp4 to DV25 (no need to unwrap in Clip Browser).
ffmpeg –i inputfile.mp4 –f dv –s 720x576 output.dv

EX1.mp4 to Mpeg2 and wav.
ffmpeg -y -i inputfile.mp4 -vcodec copy -f mpeg2video outputfile.m2v -acodec pcm_s16le outputfile.wav

EX1.mp4 to DNxHD 36Mbit and wav.
ffmpeg -y -i inputfile.mp4 -vcodec dnxhd -b 36Mb -an outputfile.mov && ffmpeg -y -i inputfile.mp4 -vn -acodec pcm_s16le outputfile.wav

[Barry_Green]

it would be worth it just for the Lowlight
Adam Wilt tested the EX1 at the same ISO as the HVX, 320... what gives?

[Stevet]

Maybe I'm comparing too much with the HDCAM that I've been using the last couple of weeks.

Aerialsfilm,
Life must be nice. It's great to get chance to work with a lot of different cameras.
This one sure way of knowing what you want.




it would be worth it just for the Lowlight. Though now you have to buy the whole thing in one shot. SXS cards and all.

I hear you. If I owned the HVX200 and had a lot invest in P2, it sure would be a hard decision to leave the format.

[Stevet]

I see the tennis stuff is a bit over exposed. the highlights are gone on the girls, shoes and so on... and the tennis balls themselves.

Other than that, I liked the 1080 25P tennis stuff. This would of looked a lot better if the exposure was not so hot.

1080 25P HQ resized to 1112x634 (Don't ask... LOL)
http://members.cox.net/vx2000/EX1_1080_25P_HQ_Resized.bmp

[Aerialsfilm M*]

Aerialsfilm,
Life must be nice. It's great to get chance to work with a lot of different cameras.
This one sure way of knowing what you want.
The HDCAM was not my camera just to get things clear. :p I had to rent it for some assignment. What I meant is that this camera can be considered as a lower quality version of the XDCAMs and HDCAM or as a much better quality version of other camera's in the minus $10k class and it should be reviewed as a product in that class too, something I was not doing up till now.

[Aerialsfilm M*]

Where have you found that 25p clip of the tennis? I only found some interlaced clips.

[Stevet]

X02_0030_01 folder.
Word

[Aerialsfilm M*]

Thank you sir!

[LuckyStudio 13]

Some example of Rolling shutter on the hv20 (interlaced)

http://www.ssontech.com/content/crooked.mov


Footage taken with the hv20 from a helicopter.

http://www.ssontech.com/content/skool.mov

[LuckyStudio 13]

Now an example of real world usage of the *rolling shutter* HV20 on very fast moving object.

http://rebelsguide.com/dl/HV20_examp_01_sm_h264.mov

[Aerialsfilm M*]

Why are you showing footage of an HV20?

[LuckyStudio 13]

To show the effect of rolling shutter, so when we get the cam, we can play sherlock holmes and go recognize and go hunt for them :p

[Barry_Green]

There are many effects from rolling shutter; for some reason people seem to focus on the leaning/skew as being "the" issue. It's best to educate yourself on what the rolling shutter is, and how it affects footage, and then you can be more informed as to whether it's likely to cause an issue in your shooting circumstances or not.

[Aerialsfilm M*]

The rolling shutter on that hv20 doesn't look too bad imo...
If you check the 25p clip of the tennis, when the second girl smashes and then when she steps backwards, it looks like the footage is wobbling. Am I right when I say this? Anyone else seen it?

[Stevet]

Please post a sample of what you are seeing.

I SERIOUSLY doubt you will see it in the tennis footage.

As you know, "a picture is worth a thousand words"

[LuckyStudio 13]

According to the ccd cs CMOS rolling shutter article posted here (read it long ago) on dvxuser.com, there are 3 main problems of a rolling shutter cam; Skew, Wobble and Partial Exposure.

If anyone has footage of partial exposure, please do post the link.

The first link to the hv20 footage is an example of skew, the second link is an example of a wobble. I unfortunately cannot find an example of partial exposure footage from a rolling shutter cam, for the exception of what was posted on the original article here. (http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/).

The 3rd footage link is from a real world footage of a fast moving object (the bicyclist) taken from a $950 hv20 cam.

[Barry_Green]

Here's an example of rolling-shutter CMOS vs. global-shutter CCD, doing the exact same task. I tried to treat the two exactly the same, and I tried the rolling shutter with OIS on and OIS off just to see what difference it would make. So the difference you are seeing here is strictly due to the effects of the rolling shutter, and not due to OIS or frame rates or shutter speeds or different handling or anything else.
http://www.icexpo.com/HV20/HV20-wobbles.mp4X

(right-click, save-as, and remove the trailing "X" from the filename)

And here's another example, download the testmotion2 file. This is from a guy who had the camera mounted on a car rig and slammed the car door.
http://www.hv20.com/archive/index.php?t-1409.html

If you can't download it from there, try this link: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IEO1G52V

Anyway, these are not from the EX1, but as long as we're posting links that show why rolling shutter in and of itself is a concern, these links show why. And why I think any potential owner of a rolling-shutter system should make sure that they're not sweeping the issue under the rug, but rather that it's been properly vetted to find out whether it's a concern in this particular product or not.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Thank you Barry !!

Here's an example of rolling-shutter CMOS vs. global-shutter CCD, doing the exact same task. I tried to treat the two exactly the same, and I tried the rolling shutter with OIS on and OIS off just to see what difference it would make. So the difference you are seeing here is strictly due to the effects of the rolling shutter, and not due to OIS or frame rates or shutter speeds or different handling or anything else.
http://www.icexpo.com/HV20/HV20-wobbles.mp4X

(right-click, save-as, and remove the trailing "X" from the filename)

And here's another example, download the testmotion2 file. This is from a guy who had the camera mounted on a car rig and slammed the car door.
http://www.hv20.com/archive/index.php?t-1409.html

If you can't download it from there, try this link: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IEO1G52V

Anyway, these are not from the EX1, but as long as we're posting links that show why rolling shutter in and of itself is a concern, these links show why. And why I think any potential owner of a rolling-shutter system should make sure that they're not sweeping the issue under the rug, but rather that it's been properly vetted to find out whether it's a concern in this particular product or not.

[Kholi]

Does anyone know the thread size of the EX-1? IS the the same as an HVX? Looking to see if the Letus-EX fits.

[RichardVClark]

77mm

[RichardVClark]

The hv20 helicopter clip keeps me up at night. I would have tossed the camera out the window with footage that repulsive.

[Barry_Green]

Does anyone know the thread size of the EX-1? IS the the same as an HVX? Looking to see if the Letus-EX fits.I don't think it's the same, I think it's either 72mm or 77mm isn't it? Either way your Letus should fit using a step-up ring.

[Barry_Green]

The hv20 helicopter clip keeps me up at night. I would have tossed the camera out the window with footage that repulsive.
That's the footage that started me on the quest to understanding what in the world this rolling-shutter phenomenon was all about. I mean, I even had an HV20 at that time. And the idea that your camcorder could do that to your footage was unthinkable. Yet I've found many examples of such things, as well as many other effects.

So if I'm a bit of a crusader on the subject of rolling shutter, this is why.

Note, I am not saying the EX1 will exhibit that type of effect, nor am I saying that the Red One will. But they might, and whenever there's a rolling shutter in the mix, I think it's important to understand just what the consequences could be based on that manufacturer's particular implementation. If it's possible to minimize or eliminate the effect, let's find out. So far I haven't found a single rolling-shutter camera that's immune to the effect, and I've viewed footage or handled every one of them that I can find (EX1 excepted, but I've had someone else test it and confirm that yes there's "some" wobble in it too). Haven't been able to quantify that to see how much of an issue it may be yet.

I don't give a flying hoot about a little bit of leaning in a swish pan. I'm talking about stuff like that helicopter stuff which can completely ruin your footage.

[RichardVClark]

I totally agree Barry. Prior to the helicopter footage, I thought you were being a little critical of cameras that utilize rolling-shutters. Now I can clearly see why you would be hesitant about any camera that utilizes a rolling shutter.

With that said, the ex1 will be the best camera on the market and exhibit non of the nasty rolling shutter effects. Why you ask? Because mine is in the mail.:thumbsup:

[Aerialsfilm M*]

New parts of footage on http://www.bolanski.com/ex/

[hienle]

I don't think it's the same, I think it's either 72mm or 77mm isn't it? Either way your Letus should fit using a step-up ring.
We do have 77mm native ring

[Barry_S]

I was sniffing around for the EX1 manual last night, couldn't find it under Sony support and ended up downloading the XDCAM EX clip browsing software just for kicks. I though, hey--this file is a kinda big for a clip browser. Turns out, they included EX1 manuals in seven languages in the zip. Go get it and run the web interface or just pop open 3280015111.pdf for the English manual.

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_GB&contentId=1193315622075

[Steve Shovlar]

Some footage has been posted which shows good DOF.
http://www.olikai.com/ex1/

[Barry_S]

BTW, Sony does include a section called "Phenomena specific to CMOS image sensors" where they touch on image skew. Like Mikko, I could see a bit when I quickly panned the camera back and forth, but it didn't seem too bad. I'm still waiting for some extensive testing because I don't think it's possible to make a good judgment without examining real footage.

[philip bloom]

Some footage has been posted which shows good DOF.
http://www.olikai.com/ex1/

looks very nice. no breathing.

[bvalente]

myCharlie

Its 3 1/2" CMOS chips from the sony site

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10014/docs/xdcamEX_broch.pdf

- my bad and I will correct on my other post (originally I wrote 3 CCDs)


Brian

[philip bloom]

It does have 3 Cmos chips. Not ccds.

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=PMW-EX1&site=biz_en_EU&pageType=TechnicalSpecs&imageType=Main&category=XDCAMCamcorders

"3-chip 1/2-inch type Exmor CMOS"

[myCharlie]

I thought so...but I just want to make sure.

Thanks to many poster in here; I've learned something new. I never thought the rolling shutter would cause that much of an artifact. I'll have to watch out for when I got my EX1 sometime next week.

I've read some where in the 35mm adapter forum that the thread size of the EX1 is 72mm. I couldn't find the exact post now so it would be nice if someone can confirm it.

[Stevet]

I'm hearing there's some skew if you pan the camera side by side really quick.

[myCharlie]

Some footage has been posted which shows good DOF.
http://www.olikai.com/ex1/

I couldn't play those footage after I downloaded all of them.

"Error -2010: the movie contains some invalid data."

[Stevet]

Download
http://www.videolan.org/
And play the mp4 files without extracting the MXF.

Woops, my bad, I thought you were refering to playing the mp4 files.

[LuckyStudio 13]

wow, for narrative work, the flat, clean pic of the EX1 is a CC heaven.

[philip bloom]

I thought so...but I just want to make sure.

Thanks to many poster in here; I've learned something new. I never thought the rolling shutter would cause that much of an artifact. I'll have to watch out for when I got my EX1 sometime next week.

I've read some where in the 35mm adapter forum that the thread size of the EX1 is 72mm. I couldn't find the exact post now so it would be nice if someone can confirm it.

it's 77mm

[FrankC]

Yep...the Sony manual says 77mm... besides, I've already bought my 77mm UV filter and polarizer!

[Stevet]

word

[LuckyStudio 13]

More Q&A on the camera here

http://ieba.wordpress.com/2007/11/21/sony-pmw-ex1-answers-revealed/#more-350

[LuckyStudio 13]

W.O.W , coming from an ex-HVX200 user, the low noise, cleanliness of the EX1 is NIGHT and DAY vs the HVX200.

According to the shooter, Grabs were taken from 720/ 24p with the lens at f4 - f5.6, This camera can almost see in the dark !

http://www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark001.tif
http://www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark002.tif
http://www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark003.tif
http://www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark004.tif
http://www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark005.tif

[Elton]

A little bit of overcrank/undercrank posted here (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=108508&page=2)

The EX1TEST.mp4 plays just fine in VLC.

[mrpicklehead]

omfg i want one. any idea what the shutter speed would have been set at?

[myCharlie]

More Q&A on the camera here

http://ieba.wordpress.com/2007/11/21/sony-pmw-ex1-answers-revealed/#more-350

Okay, I'm a bit confused on this questin and answer.

"When the included Clip Browser software is used to convert an .mp4 file to
an .mxf file, if the input .mp4 file contains 35 Mbps full-raster 1920 by
1080 footage, does the output .mxf file remain full-raster 1920 by 1080 or
does it get transcoded to anamorphically squeezed 1440 by 1080? Several
people have asked me this question and I don’t have an answer for them.
Rewrapping does not change the essence. So the essence remains identical. So the NLE needs to have the high resolution codecs to properly handle the video that is recorded."
So what does it mean the NLE needs to have a high resolution codecs to properly handle the video that is recorded? My understanding is that if the software does not support it then that means it's not going to work, correct?

[myCharlie]

Yep...the Sony manual says 77mm... besides, I've already bought my 77mm UV filter and polarizer!

Can you tell me where you purchased yours? I may have to get one too. Anyone know what kind of matte box I need to get for this camera too?

[LuckyStudio 13]

Can you tell me where you purchased yours? I may have to get one too. Anyone know what kind of matte box I need to get for this camera too?

Its not a "may", its a MUST. The first thing people do when they received a camera is to put a clear or uv filter to the camera IMMEDIATELY.

Get the German made 77mm B+W MRC UV F-Pro filter.

Chrosziel is industry standard mattebox. However not everyone can afford it, look at the new Redrock mattebox (if you can wait), Hyson films, geardear or the Breavis mattebox.

[Stevet]

Nigel Cooper's article mentions two matte boxes that fit the EX1. He did mention one worked better.
http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=171

[Stevet]

W.O.W , coming from an ex-HVX200 user, the low noise, cleanliness of the EX1 is NIGHT and DAY vs the HVX200.

According to the shooter, Grabs were taken from 720/ 24p with the lens at f4 - f5.6, This camera can almost see in the dark !

http://www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark001.tif
http://www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark002.tif
http://www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark003.tif
http://www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark004.tif
http://www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark005.tif

I can't believe how clean this stuff looks!
As you know, I'm looking forward to the camera, hopefully next week.

[LuckyStudio 13]

myCharlie, also check out

http://www.cavision.com/pictures/EX1/EX1.htm

It is a mattebox specially designed for the EX with its low position on board mic (which shouldnt be used at all (maybe for ambiance noise only while running and gunning).

The cavision mattebox should be more affordable than the Chrosziel mentioned in Nigel's review.

But if you have money to burn, Chrosziel all the way !
Their stuff are all bombproof.

[mikkowilson]

Once people start getting these cameras, please test the follwoing:

Shoot some non-important footage to a card, then test ejecting it while recording, etc.. let is know what happens to the clip? footage?

Hook up a monitor to the outputs and go to a non-standard framerate. Ideally we can get all the outputs tested at various framerates. What happens? Picture or no picture?

Record (at various framerates/shutter speeds) and fire off a bunch of camera flashes. Is partial exposure an issue? Try shooting a press event perhaps, or in a nightclub with strobes.

- Mikko

[Noel Evans]

Damn Mikko I could have done that today had I know what you were after.

[StMad]

Any further thoughts on the ASA of the EX1? Does it rate at 800 ASA with 0db gain, 6db, or 12 db?

If the EX1 stays clean with gain added, are there any undesired side effects (eg, NR on the old xl2 came with ghosting)

[Elton]

omfg i want one. any idea what the shutter speed would have been set at?

The slowmo shot looks to me to be open shutter. (probably 1/60 for 60p)

[Stevet]

Any further thoughts on the ASA of the EX1? Does it rate at 800 ASA with 0db gain, 6db, or 12 db?


It's with gain set to 0 or maybe even -3.
Brian from Redrock Micro said it was amazing.
http://redrockmicro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4521

[Stevet]

The slowmo shot looks to me to be open shutter. (probably 1/60 for 60p)

Chris was using frame accumulation mode. He had the camera set to -3db using 24p shutter @ 48 using the smallest setting of 16.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=779862&postcount=6

[Stevet]

Shoot some non-important footage to a card, then test ejecting it while recording, etc.. let is know what happens to the clip? footage?

Hook up a monitor to the outputs and go to a non-standard framerate. Ideally we can get all the outputs tested at various framerates. What happens? Picture or no picture?

- Mikko

Mikko,
these are good tests. If we don't know the results, I'll run these tests in a week when my camera arrives.

[StMad]

It's with gain set to 0 or maybe even -3.
Brian from Redrock Micro said it was amazing.
http://redrockmicro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4521

If that's the case, then I need to find a "shaking my head in awe" smiley. And I wonder what's changed since Adam Wilt's 320 ASA statement.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

What's the word on best pricing from an authorized dealer to date?

[bvalente]

I believe 800 asa is at gain of 0db. The gain is pretty noiseless even up to 12db from what we saw.


Brian