Movie shot in HD w/ HVX200, what should DVDSP Encoding Pref. be set to?

[zia]

We shot a movie in HD with HVX200 and the M2 adapter.
Edited in FCP and burned an SD dvd but quality isn't as crisp clean as we see in FCP.

The DVDSP Encoding preference MPEG-2 SD tab were set as follows:
Aspect Ratio: 16:9
Drop Frame: unchecked
Field Order: Auto
Mode: Two Pass VBR
Bit Rate: 5.5 mbps
Max Bit Rate: 7.0 Mbps
Motion Estimation: Best
Method: Background encoding

How can I encode it and make a crisp clean copy like I see in FCP?
anyone please,
Thanks

-Z

[mainstreetprod]

I'm not an expert on this - but I think your answer to the problem is in the words "SD DVD".
The regular DVD format is not HD and cannot display the full quality of HD.
You can improve the quality some by tweaking the settings, but it is still SD
video. Your bit rate is 5.5, DV is 25, DVC PRO HD is 100. Only BluRay and HD DVD can approach HD quality video.

[Beat Takeshi]

I would try to get the bit rates close to 9 without the authoring program yelling at you. The field order thing may be messing you up too. If there is a progressive setting use that.

[Nathan Beaman]

A beautiful crisp dvd is possible in sd from your hd footage in fact it is even easier to obtain. I make them all the time. It's just a matter of finding the appropriate settings fro your footage.


Your bit rate is 5.5, DV is 25, DVC PRO HD is 100. Only BluRay and HD DVD can approach HD quality video.

a side note

DVCPRO HD is 100 Mbit/s which is only maintained on the HVX at 60fps at 60i.

If you look at your imported clips you'll notice that a 720p 24p clips plays back at 5.9 MB/sec, where as a mini dv clip will play back at around 3.6 MB/sec at 29.97fps - so the data rates are about double. Though DV compression is 5:1 which is less than the DVCPRO HD compression which is 6.7:1.

[zia]

Aram,
you said bit rate should be close to 9 but didn't specify minimum or maximum
should the minimum bit rate be 9 or the maximum bit rate 9?
Nathan,
How do you set your encoding bit rate in SD preference for an HD footage?

Z

[majormorgan]

9MBps should be your maximum as this is the maximum that cheaper and many older domestic DVD players can run to before they can't cope with the data rate.

Keep it two pass VBR, 5 minimumand 9 maximum. Progressive if you can.

I find that DVDs look much better on a TV screen than on a computer monitor.

For encoding, I find that the best MPEG2s I make are by converting uncompressed quicktimes in Cleaner 6 or better and converting it there. It can handle motion better than the apple quicktime MPEG 2 codec. But thats been only my experiences.

thanks

Richard

[David Saraceno]

I would try to get the bit rates close to 9 without the authoring program yelling at you. The field order thing may be messing you up too. If there is a progressive setting use that.

A bit rate of 9 mbps will actually work against you for many set tops.

They cannot keep up with the data flow. Remember the combined maximum is 10.2 mbps (or close) for audio and video.

I never go above 7.4 mbps maximum and always use Dolby2/AC3 audio.

As to keep the quality the same as FCP, it cannot be done.

mpeg2/m2v files are heavily compressed

[fritz]

a side note

DVCPRO HD is 100 Mbit/s which is only maintained on the HVX at 60fps at 60i.

If you look at your imported clips you'll notice that a 720p 24p clips plays back at 5.9 MB/sec, where as a mini dv clip will play back at around 3.6 MB/sec at 29.97fps - so the data rates are about double. Though DV compression is 5:1 which is less than the DVCPRO HD compression which is 6.7:1.

Sorry Nathan, but this has just thrown me into a bit of a spin - are you saying that the HVX doesn't really give us 100mbps except at one particular frame rate? So is every other frame rate actually HD or...something else?

[Nathan Beaman]

Sorry Nathan, but this has just thrown me into a bit of a spin - are you saying that the HVX doesn't really give us 100mbps except at one particular frame rate? So is every other frame rate actually HD or...something else?

crap - i typed a ton and then my browser crapped out so here goes again....

a couple of things -

The firestore and the biggest reason it sucked is that it is based on maintaining a consitant record data rate of 100mbps. Not all resolutions and frame rates use this much bandwidth - hence the benefits of using the (pn) native modes. The firestore records everithing at 59.97 and tags the proper frames for the designated record rate and uses only those on import. So you end up with way more data than you may ever need and thats also more data that you have to archive as well.
( I should note that this is not based on the magic firmware update that was supposed to happen to bypass this. I'm not sure if that update ever came out as after working with the firestore I quickly lost interest in the product.) ---- im only refering to the firestore for setting this up ----- sorry to digress

not all recording formats use 100mbps and only a few of the converted formats end up at 100 mbps. The native modes record at less than 100mbps which is why you can get more on a card at that rate. The other modes record 60i over 59.97fps and you get the tagged frames on import.

Just look at some recorded clips after import -

couple quick samples from my browser right now -
720p 24pn 5.9 MB/sec 47.2 mbps
720p 30pn 7.2 MB/sec 57.6 mbps
720p 24p 5.9 MB/sec 47.2 mbps
720p 30p 7.2 MB/sec 57.6 mbps
720p 60p 14.1 MB/sec 112.8 mbps
1080i 24PA 14.1 MB/sec 112.8 mbps
1080i 24p 14.1 MB/sec 112.8 mbps
1080i 30p 14.1 MB/sec 112.8 mbps
1080i 60p 14.1 MB/sec 112.8 mbps

you'll notice that the bitrates match on the imported clips in 720p between the p and pn modes, in the end they end up with 23.98fps or 29.97fps either way. The difference is that the P versions recorded almost twice as much data to the card as the PN modes. 720p 60p hits 14.1 MB/sec which is 112.8 mbps and actually exceeds the 100mbps marker. You'll also notice that everything from 720p 60p and above uses the full 14.1 MB/sec. That is because the 1/3" chipset is actually 960x540p so you effectively "max" out at that point.


modify ---- just a side note. I'm extremely tired from a long shoot so if I left something out please feel free to chime in ----- especially Barry. Also please excuse the delirous tired rambling.

[Nathan Beaman]

A bit rate of 9 mbps will actually work against you for many set tops.

They cannot keep up with the data flow. Remember the combined maximum is 10.2 mbps (or close) for audio and video.

I never go above 7.4 mbps maximum and always use Dolby2/AC3 audio.

As to keep the quality the same as FCP, it cannot be done.

mpeg2/m2v files are heavily compressed

David is definitely right on this. Just slamming a clip at the max bitrate is not the answer. Compression settings need to be based more on the content, rather than some generic blanket statement. Often when setting highbit rates on a scene that has little movement or action or color range will end up with nasty artifacts from over analyzing the frame. If you want to learn something practical about compression bitrates ---- put your favorite movie or at least one that you think looks good in the dvd player and watch it with the current bit rate displayed on the screen. You'll learn alot about what kinds of scenes look good at what bitrates and also learn how complicated good compression really is (not to mention why it costs so much).

[fritz]

Wow! Thanks Nathan for such a comprehensive answer. I had been wondering about the native recording modes.

So, I guess I was getting confused because I thought that for footage to be HD the bit rate had to be 100mbps. I think I got this notion from reading the Panasonic brochure on the camera which talks about the HD video codec having 'a low compression ratio at at video bit rate of 100Mbps'.

So I'm guessing that to qualify as HD it's all about the vertical resolution (ie. 720 or 1080) rather than the bit rate?

[Justyn]

for years I've kept it between 5.5 and 6 for that same reason that some players can't handle anything more than that.. and I personally think that once you get to a set point there isn't much of a quality increase.. just make sure it's a 2x VBR and that you've selected the right timebase. It still won't look as good as your native HD.. but still a hell of a lot better than SD.

[David Saraceno]

I with Justyn on this.

I and my clients see no difference between 7.2 or so and 9 -- even if they can play 9 mbps.

More isn't better insofar as encoding to DVD is concerned.

[Lez]

I'll just chime in quickly.. I've found that it's better to make a quicktime reference file of the sequence in FCP and take that to Compressor rather than directly exporting from fcp to compressor... The slow-mos I was creating in FCP were not rendered properly when exporting direct to Compressor form FCP...

My 2 cents...

Cheers

Les
www.les.herstik.com (http://www.les.herstik.com)

[sukram]

This thread helped me quite a bit.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=80290

Specifically, this note (near the end of the thread) helped me get the best out of it.


I Got to this thread a little late but wish i hadn't.

I have found the best way to get top quailty out of compressor is to take the compression steps yourself. By this i mean, using the advanced conversions as an intermediate. The advanced conversions actually use a process from Shake called retiming and give you exccelent picture quality when doing format conversions, something the old compressor sucked at. I usually export any HD project out the NTSC 29.97 using the advanced conversions and then bring it back into compressor and recompress for MPEG2 and AC3.

I wish you could set up compressor to do this in one foul swoop and there is a way using the frame controls, but i have not had any luck.

But by far the best quality i get is going from HD to uncompressed NTSC 29.97 and then to MPEG2.

Matt

[Nathan Beaman]

there is a way better, simpler and faster way to do it than this. It's overkill to do it that way. You create alot of useless data in the inbetween stages, not to mention that alot of the apple app's share the same processes. It is simply a matter of getting your settings optomized for your material.

sometimes these compression discussions drive me nuts because I know the answers I just can't share them due to proprietary silence agreeements.

The bottom line though is that you can get an amazing and high quality SD compression from HD going straight from final cut to compressor.

[David Saraceno]

sometimes these compression discussions drive me nuts because I know the answers I just can't share them due to proprietary silence agreeements.

Nathan:

Are you saying there is a stock setting that is relevant to every encode regardless of length of the video in minutes, and type of footage?

And what "proprietary silence agreements" pertain to the use of Compressor, or BitVice or any of the PC encoders?

I never heard of anything like that.

I apologize even my post seems contentious; it isn't meant to be.

But encoding well is part art and part science.

I've never heard that a rosetta stone exists to achieve it.

[Nathan Beaman]

Nathan:

Are you saying there is a stock setting that is relevant to every encode regardless of length of the video in minutes, and type of footage?

And what "proprietary silence agreements" pertain to the use of Compressor, or BitVice or any of the PC encoders?

I never heard of anything like that.

I apologize even my post seems contentious; it isn't meant to be.

But encoding well is part art and part science.

I've never heard that a rosetta stone exists to achieve it.

no david. I agree with many of your posts and have said similar things. Good encoding is an art form in itself. Settings should also vary based on content. There is no universal perfect setting and I truly beleive that you have to base your settings around certain criteria relative to the content. Professional encoding is sometimes done on a shot to shot basis, which is the ultimate luxury.

I'm simply implying that there is a very easy and basic starting point for exellent retention of sharpness, color and dynamic range of HD when down converting to SD - and that this done with the basic tools at hand in Final Cut Studio. Templates in compressor are decent, but good compression and cookie cutter settings don't necesarily match.

There are however some staples that will get good results each time that can be then custom tailored further to the content.

I always reccommend (when time allows) exporting several versions of a project with different settings and compare.

As far as the proprietary thing goes. It has to do with certain companies I do business with and my own work as well. There's certain things I can't share and some things that would probably put me out of a job if anyone could access them on the web.

[David Saraceno]

Thanks for clarifying that Nathan.

I appreciate your comments.

[Nathan Beaman]

Thanks for clarifying that Nathan.

I appreciate your comments.

thank you! you are a true assest to this community!