Wedding Videography at 60p on HVX200

[clipgloss]

Hello All!

I've had the HVX200 since December of 2006 and have been producing corporate videos in True HD (both 1080i and 720p formats). I get a lot of wedding clients as well, but have not had anyone wanting to upgrade until now. I have my first True HD wedding in a couple of weeks.

I would very much like to shoot the entire wedding (well, at least entire ceremony) in 720/60p so I can achieve true slow motion at any moment while editing.

Question: In post production, what is the best workflow for this scenario? Obviously, I do not want the entire wedding to be in slow motion. I just want to have the information available so I can take advantage of the true slow motion when opportunities present themselves.

The final medium is going to be Blu-ray Disc.

The main timeline is going to be 30p, correct? After importing the 60p footage, should I make a 30p version of the footage using the HD Frame Rate Converter in Final Cut? That seems like sooo much work and hard drive space! There has to be another solution!

To spell it out, I want to edit in 30p like normal but be able to switch to true slow motion at 60p whenever I want.

What would happen if I edited everything on a 60p timeline? How might that change my workflow? I'm just trying to come up with a solution here!

I know this sounds incredibly confusing, but I'm really trying to accomplish a simple thing. There has to be a simple answer. ;-)

I use Final Cut Studio 5.1 on my PowerMac 2.0GHz Dual Processor.

Thank you for your comments and helping me figure out this workflow solution!

[faustfire]

You could just edit in a 60p timeline and then export to 30p.

Also, when using the framerate converter you can choose to not create a self contained movie. Do this and you will use no more disk space than your original footage takes up.

[clipgloss]

Ah, thanks faustfire. ;-) Using the HD FRC and making a second version in 30p and NOT creating it as a self-contained movie would be a good option!

If I were to edit on a 60p timeline and export the entire sequence to 30p for the final video, how would you suggest achieving the true slow motion during the edit in select places . . . on the 60p timeline, of course?

Thanks!

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

Good god. Are you using a different method than what I am thinking of?

An entire wedding shot at 720/24pn/60fps? Unless the wedding is VERY fast, you must be going straight to hard disk or laptop.

Also through personal experience I have found some evening weddings can be in dark/dimlit churches, and 60fps is going to knock you down a stop.

[clipgloss]

Thanks for your input. ;-) It is an outdoor wedding. Lots of light . . . no problem with that. I'm going to be shooting to a Firestore. Actually, I have a couple.

And, I'm shooting 720/60p. 60fps. Not 24fps.

[Bob Fagan]

Do you mean 60p or 60 variable frame rate at 24pn? The latter will give you the slow mo effect I think you are looking for while taking up 2.5 times of disc space per real time minute.

BTW, how are you handling sound?

[TimurCivan]

he means 720 - 60p. I think thats the best way to do it.

[clipgloss]

I mean 60p at 720. Thanks for clarifying. I'm not familiar with the variable frame rates using the "film" (not "video") mode of the camera. Does shooting in 60p mode at 720 not get you true slow motion? Are 60 frames per second not shot? How is it different from shooting in "60 variable frame rate"?

Thanks. I'm getting just a little confused here. Sorry . . .

[DCERVENKA]

If you shoot in variable framerates (i.e. 60fps) you will not be able to record audio.. Something to keep in mind if you are using just one camera

[Barry_Green]

But if you shoot 720/60p then yes audio will be recorded the whole time. Put it in VIDEO CAM mode and choose 720/60p and you'll get audio.

[Portergold]

I was not aware you could record 720/60P to a firestore, only P2?

JP

[clipgloss]

Thanks guys! I appreciate you letting me know about the "no audio" with the variable framerates. I'll stick to 720/60p like I have been.

Can we please go back to my main question? The best workflow solution for what I am trying to achieve? Thanks! ;-)

[Barry_Green]

I was not aware you could record 720/60P to a firestore, only P2?

JP
720/60p is the main way that 720 gets shot in the world of live news/events etc. Yes the FireStore supports it. It is not "slow motion", it's the "live" look.

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

Ok, well since we have the Video mode guy confused, the film mode guy (me) is confused...

If he shoots in "Video" 720/60.... besides the 'video look', can he extract and expand that timeline to get a clean and true 60fps slowmotion?

I've got to go dig out Barry's Book... I thought I would ask though because it seems we have his attention. :)

[Barry_Green]

60P doesn't mean "slow motion", it means 60 fps. If you're shooting at 60fps and playing back at 60fps, then you'll have the "live" look (aka the "video" look). Watch the Super Bowl or any sports event on ESPN HD, or Fox or ABC, or watch any prime-time reality show on Fox or ABC, and you'll see 720/60p at 60fps.

It's only slow motion if you play it back at a slower frame rate (like 24p or 30p).

So yes, if you wanted to drop into frame duplication mode you could turn 60p into 30p, but if you want the "live" look you'd shoot 60fps and play back at 60fps.

[clipgloss]

Ah, got it, Barry. Thanks! So, can I still choose to take that 60p footage and bring it into a 30p timeline and have the slow motion that I want for certain parts of the wedding? Thanks again . . .

[Barry_Green]

Certainly you could. I can't tell you how to do it in every editor, but in Vegas you'd play the footage back at 1/2 speed and get frame-accurate slow motion, or you'd let it run at double speed to get 30p at "real time" motion.

[clipgloss]

Thanks Barry. ;-) Any tricks to doing exactly that but in Final Cut 5.1? (Besides the regular "clip speed" option?) All within a 30p timeline that I have set up?

Thank you!!

[clipgloss]

Hey guys and gals,

Anyone else willing to give me any tips or pointers on the best workflow solution for what I'm trying to achieve here?

Thanks for all of your input! I greatly appreciate it! ;-)

[mainstreetprod]

Maybe I'm wrong, but if shooting 720 60P I think you are going to drop it into a 60P timeline for normal speed through most of the wedding. Than change the speed to 1/2 (or even less should look fairly smooth) when needed. I would use ramping when varying the speed for a smooth speed change.

[Spartacus]

I´m confused: what if the output also is a DVD for the wedding guests, do I slow down the footage to 30i?

[clipgloss]

Maybe I'm wrong, but if shooting 720 60P I think you are going to drop it into a 60P timeline for normal speed through most of the wedding. Than change the speed to 1/2 (or even less should look fairly smooth) when needed. I would use ramping when varying the speed for a smooth speed change.

Thank you for your response! It is right in line with a solution that I've been contemplating from the beginning. If I change the speed to half (to achieve slow motion) in a 60p timeline, it will play back at 30p, which should still look perfectly fine! ;-) I take it I shouldn't have to enable frame blending . . . I hate the look of that and try not to use it whenver possible.

When the sequence is finished, I should be able to export to Compressor as regular video (30 fps) and everything should look perfectly fine. Correct? Question: Any chance of this workflow solution degrading the quality, regarding to frame rate, of the areas where I slowed down the footage? (Compressor won't export half the information of the slowed down footage, making those areas 15fps will it?) Thanks for the responses!!

[ksteiger]

My 2 cents. Why not shoot in 720 30P? Then you would have real solow mo (As much as true 1/2 speed) as well as having a quasi film look. Unless they absolutely have to have that lovely reality show look. Slow motion in camera as opposed to in the editing software are two different things.

This would also give you an extra stop over 60fps for the 99.99% of the footage that is not slow speed.
Good luck.

[clipgloss]

My 2 cents. Why not shoot in 720 30P? Then you would have real solow mo (As much as true 1/2 speed) as well as having a quasi film look. Unless they absolutely have to have that lovely reality show look. Slow motion in camera as opposed to in the editing software are two different things.

This would also give you an extra stop over 60fps for the 99.99% of the footage that is not slow speed.
Good luck.

Thanks for the effort . . . however it doesn't make since. How would shooting in 30p get me "real" slow motion? Also, the "reality show" look is not going to be there when I bring the entire project down to 30p in Compressor for DVD.

ANYWAY, guys, I really would *love* for someone to answer the question that I had before ksteiger's comment. Please . . . anyone? Thanks so much!

[David Saraceno]

And what are you going to use to author the blu ray HD DVD?

Compressor will not create blu ray compliant encodes and there isn't any blu ray authoring on the Mac.

Blu ray on the PC support is, at best, spotty, and not all blu ray set tops are consistent with blu ray recordable discs.

You better be careful if your final output is a blu ray HD DVD.

[clipgloss]

And what are you going to use to author the blu ray HD DVD?

Compressor will not create blu ray compliant encodes and there isn't any blu ray authoring on the Mac.

Blu ray on the PC support is, at best, spotty, and not all blu ray set tops are consistent with blu ray recordable discs.

You better be careful if your final output is a blu ray HD DVD.

Dude, forgive me if I sound a little sarcastic here, but where have you been for the past few months??? Compressor 3 does now have Blu-ray compliant encoding features. And, Toast Titanium 8 has the capability of authoring Blu-ray discs. Toast 8 has been out since January and Compressor 3 has been on the market a short time now. Of course, the new DVD Studio Pro handles Blu-ray . . . no problem. And yes, before you ask, there are Blu-ray drives designed specifically for Macs. Last but not least, you do know that Blu-ray and HD-DVD are two totally different mediums, correct? You seem to have combined them into one.

Seriously, I would at least research what is currently available before making a comment like this. I am sure you were trying to be helpful in some way . . . thanks anyway. ;-) :huh:

[clipgloss]

I'm posting this question again since I've gotten a couple of off-topic comments since then. I want it to be fresh. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mainstreetprod:
Maybe I'm wrong, but if shooting 720 60P I think you are going to drop it into a 60P timeline for normal speed through most of the wedding. Than change the speed to 1/2 (or even less should look fairly smooth) when needed. I would use ramping when varying the speed for a smooth speed change.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Thank you for your response! It is right in line with a solution that I've been contemplating from the beginning. If I change the speed to half (to achieve slow motion) in a 60p timeline, it will play back at 30p, which should still look perfectly fine! ;-) I take it I shouldn't have to enable frame blending . . . I hate the look of that and try not to use it whenver possible.

When the sequence is finished, I should be able to export to Compressor as regular video (30 fps) and everything should look perfectly fine. Correct? Question: Any chance of this workflow solution degrading the quality, regarding to frame rate, of the areas where I slowed down the footage? (Compressor won't export half the information of the slowed down footage, making those areas 15fps will it?) Thanks for the responses!!

[David Saraceno]

Dude, forgive me if I sound a little sarcastic here, but where have you been for the past few months???

The better question is where have you been?

No need to be sarcastic, because you are completely WRONG about Toast's capabilities

Toast 8 can create data blu ray discs; it can't be used to author video blu ray discs.

I do product reviews, and the product manager for Toast 8 confirmed this to me months ago.

"Hi David! Apologies for the delay as I’ve been traveling. The Roxio software we include doesn’t natively support Blu-ray authoring, but is compatible w/ Scenarist which does. At this beginning stage, BD is best for large archival storage and I believe Roxio will build authoring into the software in the future once it gains a foothold."

Seriously (but not sarcastically), do your homework, and don't call me dude.

Good luck with the project, but you should consider another delivery medium.

[clipgloss]

Well David, it's fortunate, then, that the new DVD Studio Pro AUTHORS Blu-ray Discs, huh? Like I've done in the past, I like to create the disc image in DVD Studio Pro and then burn in Toast (as a data disc . . . like you stated). I've had more luck with this workflow.

So, it seems to me that the delivery medium (and workflow) is just fine. I wouldn't be stating all this if I hadn't done at least a few successful projects using these items. Believe me, it works just fine. No need to challenge the delivery medium, the workflow or the capabilities of the Mac in regards to Blu-ray.

Back to the homework? Perhaps you should "review" the new Final Cut Studio 2. It's good stuff. Are you a Mac guy, by the way? You seem to know about PCs . . .

I guess it's going to be hard to get answers to my questions and other thoughts on workflow solutions because I keep getting hit with comments like these. Thanks.

[David Saraceno]

Your quote:

"And, Toast Titanium 8 has the capability of authoring Blu-ray discs. "

It does not have authoring capabilities as I stated in my post, and has been confirmed with the product manager.

Which blu ray set top have you authored to? The reason I ask is that many blu ray set tops are not compatible with blu ray recordables.

And which blu ray burner are you using with Compressor 3 on what Mac? You indicated that you were using 5.1 which does NOT include Compressor 3. That is part of the FCS2 package.

I'm trying to help here, so the condescending comments, and calling me "Dude" are counterproductive to participation and aren't really necessary or appreciated.

As I stated earlier, Toast 8 cannot AUTHOR blu ray discs.

[clipgloss]

Why are you pulling quotes from my original response to your first post? We've moved on. I've already said that I "author" the discs in DVDSP and then burn as a data disc in Toast. You already said that you KNOW Toast 8 will burn data discs. What's the question here?

I do believe I called you David in the last post . . . again, you're pulling items from the next-to-last post. We've moved on.

[David Saraceno]

Which blu ray set top have you authored to? The reason I ask is that many blu ray set tops are not compatible with blu ray recordables.

And which blu ray burner are you using with Compressor 3 on what Mac? You indicated that you were using 5.1 which does NOT include Compressor 3. That is part of the FCS2 package.

[ksteiger]

If you are shooting in 720 60P you are already shooting at 60 fps and have no more speed increase available. If you are shooting at 720 30P you are shooting 30 progressive frames per second and can now overcrank by changing the frame rate in the scene file to 60fps. When you play it back in your 30 frame timeline it will be playing back at half speed just like film.
Also shooting at 30P will give you the film look in camera without having to fake it later in post. 720 60P just looks like "Deal or No Deal" style video. I hope this made sense.

[AbstracTheory]

http://www.mcetech.com/blu-ray/
This is the one I was thinking of getting soon...

clipgloss:
i like the workflow of authoring in DVDSPro and burning the image in Toast 8... but I am also curious which units you have tested Blu-Ray playback in? I use my PS3 primarily as a blu-ray player... love to hear some positive results..

[clipgloss]

Which blu ray set top have you authored to? The reason I ask is that many blu ray set tops are not compatible with blu ray recordables.

And which blu ray burner are you using with Compressor 3 on what Mac? You indicated that you were using 5.1 which does NOT include Compressor 3. That is part of the FCS2 package.

I apologize. I did say that I was using Final Cut 5.1. I am using -- and have been using for weeks -- the Final Cut Studio 2 package. My burner is a FastMac SuperDrive. I have used one of my colleagues' systems and they have a MCE Blu-ray SuperDrive.

[David Saraceno]

The reason I'm pushing for a response on testing of the workflow is because I've not heard of any blu ray disc authored in DVD SP that actually works.

HD DVD, yes, but no blu ray at all.

And it is an integral part of the promised product.

[clipgloss]

If you are shooting in 720 60P you are already shooting at 60 fps and have no more speed increase available. If you are shooting at 720 30P you are shooting 30 progressive frames per second and can now overcrank by changing the frame rate in the scene file to 60fps. When you play it back in your 30 frame timeline it will be playing back at half speed just like film.
Also shooting at 30P will give you the film look in camera without having to fake it later in post. 720 60P just looks like "Deal or No Deal" style video. I hope this made sense.

Thanks!! I understand . . . I appreciate you explaining. ;-)

[clipgloss]

http://www.mcetech.com/blu-ray/
This is the one I was thinking of getting soon...

clipgloss:
i like the workflow of authoring in DVDSPro and burning the image in Toast 8... but I am also curious which units you have tested Blu-Ray playback in? I use my PS3 primarily as a blu-ray player... love to hear some positive results..

Ha! I have tested in one of my colleagues' PS3! ;-) Also, I have a standalone Panasonic Blu-ray Player and a family member that has a Samsung. All works fine!

Glad we share the same workflow taste! Thanks for sharing!

[David Saraceno]

Have you tested a blu ray DVD on some set tops?

If you have and they work with menus, it would be great to hear your complete workflow.

For example, half the time I can't get h.264 encode DVCProHD footage to even import into DVDSP 4.2 at anything less than 10.3 mbps.

[tak1108]

I'm glad I saw this thread. I didn't realize I could create Blu-Ray Discs. You couldn't with DVDSP4 on 5.1, but on 6 you can. so that super cool.

[David Saraceno]

I'm glad I saw this thread. I didn't realize I could create Blu-Ray Discs. You couldn't with DVDSP4 on 5.1, but on 6 you can. so that super cool.

I'm still trying to confirm that and the workflow.

If the OP can detail the workflow, I'd be happy to write a tutorial.

I have a copy of Lacie's blu ray burner, Toast 8, and DVD SP 4.2 and Compressor 3.

But the OP is still a little light on exactly what is authored with what and with what menus, etc.

[clipgloss]

OMG . . . I am sooo sorry you guys! On the blu-ray software/workflow side of things, I was speaking for someone else. I have not physically done the final authoring of our last couple of HD projects (delivered on blu-ray). I handed over the final files to one of my colleagues to deliver. I had the application titles that we have used for years stuck in my mind.

I had a good technical talk with him and discovered that there is NOT blu-ray support, even for the most recent version of DVDSP! Can you believe this? And, we all know that Toast Titanium 8 only burns DATA discs. How frustrating!

My colleague was given a tryout version a few months ago for the new Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 that includes the new Adobe Encore CS3. This is the authoring application! Again, I apologize for the confusion. Sorry, sorry, sorry. ;-) The final retail version of this is supposed to be shipping any time now through the beginning of July. Hopefully it'll come soon and I'll purchase the retail version for sure!

Has anyone else been able to try out the new Adobe Encore CS3 authoring solution? How would you compare it to DVDSP? I know it has blu-ray authoring capabilities. Menus? Does anyone know?

Thanks guys . . . and please don't be too mad at me for getting my information wrong. Especially to David, I apologize. Sorry for getting people excited over nothing.

[Justyn]

I think I know what you are talking about and I shot a concert a year ago with the same workflow that you are trying to do. Basically I wanted to shoot the concert with the option to turn any shot into slowmotion.. while also recording the audio as well. So it's really pretty simple. I shot everything like Barry said with the 60p and got the audio. Then.. what I did was use the 60p as if it were normal speed on timelines and through rendering and that. Then.. when there I was a part or a shot that I wanted it to be in slow motion, I duplicated the footage then I changed the timebase from the 59.98 through cinematools to the 24p.. hence then the slow-motion. On a follow up job... I just duplicated every shot and then had one at the 60p and then in cinematools, I had one converted into the 24p timebase slow-motion option.

Really just a couple of extra steps... The data is a killer though as you'll only get the one minute per gig situation... Hope this helps though... think it might

[clipgloss]

Thanks Justyn, I appreciate your comments! That's exactly what I want to do and exactly the mindset that I am in. ;-) I want to be able to turn any shot into true slow motion (at 30p or even 24p). I had not thought of Cinema Tools as an option. A great idea! And you edited on a 59.98 timeline. Thanks again. ;-)

[David Saraceno]

I had a good technical talk with him and discovered that there is NOT blu-ray support, even for the most recent version of DVDSP! Can you believe this? And, we all know that Toast Titanium 8 only burns DATA discs. How frustrating!

Really?

Kinda of what I've saying all along, isn't it?

I also took a bunch of heat from you about as well when trying to assist.

Anyway, good luck

[David Saraceno]

You can also use the FRC in FCP to convert 60 to 24 for slow motion.

I'm also aware of a tutorial that permits a ramp up or down using AE 7

[clipgloss]

Thanks for being a good guy, David. ;-) You haven't had the opportunity to review the new Premiere Pro CS3 with Encore CS3, have you? Do you have plans to? I'd love to hear what your thoughts were.

[clipgloss]

You can also use the FRC in FCP to convert 60 to 24 for slow motion.

I'm also aware of a tutorial that permits a ramp up or down using AE 7

Thanks David! So many different ways to accomplish the same thing. Which do you guys think is the best in regards to quality? In regards to easiness and/or less steps? 1) FRC 2) Cinema Tools 3) Ramping up or down - speed control

[David Saraceno]

Encore's blu ray capabilities is one thing I am interested in.

However, the Production version isn't shipping until late next month, and Encore wasn't included in the beta version.

Also the premiere beta version only support NTSC DV.

As an aside, 4.2 will author HD DVD discs, and a player runs about $300.00 from Toshiba.

You can get about 45 minutes of h.264 on the DVD 5 red laser dye and it looks like broadcast HD.

[clipgloss]

Interesting. Thanks for the info on the H.264 HD on DVD-5. To accomplish this, does one need to purchase special DVD-5 media? Or, is the "red laser" an item within DVDSP?

[David Saraceno]

No special media required.

Just a Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden quality disc, and a normal DVD burner.

I've not tested with DL discs, but others have and report good results.

Using 10.3 mbps h.264 encoding, and AC3/dolby2 sound, it looks very very good.

We did a college athletics recruitment DVD for SD, and gave them a sample of a HD disc as well. Showed it with a Toshiba HD DVD A1 on a 50 inch plasma via HDMI.

A whole bunch of wows. The slow motion footage of a long TD pass in light snow with a little bit of filtered sunlight was stunning.

[clipgloss]

Awesome! Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like your project went very well too. ;-)

[clipgloss]

BTW, the current DVD Player application on the Mac does not play HD-DVD video, does it? Also, in DVDSP when creating your HD-DVDs to be burned on DVD-5 (or 9) the menus work, correct?

[David Saraceno]

It plays DVD SP encoded HD DVDs discs, but no commercial ones.

The menus work with 4.1.2 or later, and with a Toshiba A1 with the latest firmware.

The Toshiba is a little finicky with HDMI connections at times with our Samsung

Works great with our Pioneer Elite however

[Justyn]

I believe that I did use a 59.98 timeline... BUT if you throw it into a 30p or 24p without changing the timebase, you will have to render it, but it will be playing normal speed. Then you can grab the file that you converted to 24 or 30 through cinematools and that would be in slow-motion.

I used to use the FRC on FCP but it's slow... CInematools is instant and a lot more easy to understand. I believe you can also batch convert the files so that saves time. Cinematools rocks for this kind of stuff. Make SURE Though that you save one version in the 60p and then one in the converted as I believe you can't change back to 60p when it's been converted to the cinematools timebase..

Glad this helped and I understand what you are trying to do.. My clients were happy to have that as an option...


J

[clipgloss]

Thank you Justyn and David for your comments! You have been a lot of help with your explanations and comments on past experiences. ;-)